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How To Ask The Right Questions And Position Myself As The Expert

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116
Chris Do
Published
December 16, 2021

Chris Do explains what branding is and its value. He talks about asking the right questions. How you can leverage asking the right questions to position your business and become the expert.

Read Transcript
And this is called number one 16. It's the morning call, and we have about 45 minutes left together, I think we'll go over a little bit before I dive into what I want to talk about today. I just want to ask you guys first, are there any hot burning issues that we need to talk about? What is something that we disagree on, so I can make note of it for next time? Let's start there. Or you want more clarity on. You don't have to disagree with me. Anybody just unmute yourself, you don't need to raise your hand or anything. There are something that comes up frequently, it will often and it sparks a big debate. It's the difference between marketing and branding. And I guess there's this one video that this is not storyboard story brand guy did Donald Miller. Yeah and that video I just thought, come up again this week. Were you the one who shared it, rachel? I was not, but I saw it go off. I'm like, Oh no, again. Well, I think a lot of people are getting upset because it diminishes the work that many of us do in branding. But I OK, I don't want to talk about just yet, and it's done on purpose. You know that it's done to trigger reaction from you. So everybody that reacted to it is just falling victim to the way it was set up. So that's OK. We're creatures of our emotions, and that's totally OK. I see people like Rob just describing branding as a veneer, a slap of paint, and he doesn't really talk about, yeah, he doesn't talk about it because why he's not a branding guy. He in the video, which I saw some of it. He just glosses over what branding is because I don't think he really even knows. He doesn't know, and that's OK. That's all right. And, OK, any other controversies going on, things that are bothering you and anybody on Twitter, see Mark on post on sharing fonts with starving students, how that blew up in his face. Oh, my God. OK I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure every single person on this call has an illegal font on their desktop somewhere. I'm pretty sure all of a sudden, no, I mean, come on, dude, come on. There's all these righteous designers like, oh, all my fonts are legal. You're a scumbag. You're telling people to steal. No, I don't think his original post about. Sharing fonts with people that are starving students to help them get started. Had any malice in it. But the way that the Internet Storm Twitter hate trolls come out and it went insane instantly, they started to attack him. He said he got death threats, people attacking his family in saying that, you know, what kind of father are you? Should you be raising children? You're teaching people how to steal. It got really nasty. So expect a piece of content from yours truly on the legalities, the ethics, the morality, the licensing component of sharing fonts that certain death threats. Really? yeah, because what it is, it's because somebody is attacking the livelihood of creative people who already don't make a lot of money, who labor on things that we all find tremendously useful. Well, have funds changed? I mean, I've seen it change so much with Google Fonts and with Adobe integrating the typekit like. And you can even buy from design cuts like these incredible fonts for so cheap. This is in the past five years only. I can't imagine ever needing to license like 1,000 font, but how many times have you seen $1,000 font? Has anybody here literally seen 1,000 font? What in the world like, printed? No, like you want to buy $1,000 fund and you can't afford it? I wouldn't. I mean, like Baskerville used to be around 1,000 at some point. Really? Yeah. I mean, when Microsoft licensed all their fonts, when Microsoft Word was first coming out, they had to pay thousands of dollars to get that as part of the work package, that just doesn't exist anymore. I feel like where we were. Why are we talking about microsoft? Are you talking about you as an individual? Because I know this because my cousin works for a tech company. One of these app companies had to pay a million to license a set of fonts. Wow but because it's being distributed across millions and millions of apps, right? The end user, so that's a licensing play. All right, go ahead. Sorry, I meant for one user like I think Baskerville was around $1,500 for one user. I can, I can check, please, please check, because I've never seen it. Because when I got out of school and I launched my company, I bought the entire Adobe font collection, which has, I don't know how many thousands of fonts for like 6,000. And it was a lot of money, but I'm like, dude, I'm done because I came off the underground student illegal network of sharing fonts when I became a professional I acted like a professional I try to buy as much of the things that I use as possible, knowing very well it either supports or hurts the industry that I'm profiting from. So, yeah, I was an expensive purchase, but I bought the entire collection everything from baldoni to cars on to Baskerville for $6,000 every font they make. Some of the big families are hundreds of dollars, but I don't think I've ever seen like a right, which is like, wait, one style for $1,000. I've never seen it myself, so I don't know. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I've not seen it. So what I got into a discussion, debate with somebody online was they've never actually tried to buy a fund. So in their mind, it was thousands of for a single use, and they never read the terms because they never tried to buy a font. They thought that they have to buy a license every time they use it for a commercial project, which is also baloney. So when they started saying these things, I'm like from the way that you're asking these questions, I can tell either you've never read anything or you've never purchased a fund in your life, and then it's like, I guess I should read, and you're right. So there's this misconception that fonts cost so much money where designers, I think type boundaries have gotten a little bit of revenge, revenge on all the other designers who steal their fonts is now there's web licensing. So it used to be this flat fee that you can buy a font for one price. Some of you guys make it super expensive. Some people can consider it quite affordable, but some of them have web usage. So if a website has 100,000 active users on it per month, they want to charge you one tier and it has a million. They charge you a different tier. This is not true across all type families, but a lot of the more sophisticated foundries now are charging for web usage as a licensing play. So you're supposed to add a cookie or something, and then they can check with robots. Basketball basketball is 200 English pounds right now for the whole family, and I think it was more like five years ago when I check when I was buying stuff, it was more. Yeah so when you have a really extensive family with like many different weights, age weights, like four four weights and the italics. Yeah so you see so that somebody had to spend a lot. That's a really complete family. Probably more weights than you need to use because it's like thin hairline light, extra light. And it's like, no, just get extra light and bold and you're good. You really don't need that. And so the other argument coming from somebody was, well, how do I know I'm going to like this font? I should be able to download and use it for free, and if I use it in a commercial application, then I'll buy it. I'm like, do you know who you sound like right now? You sound like the worst client in the world. So why don't you give your clients design work for free and they'll pay you if they like it, if they use it? Well, that's different. That's custom where this is a product, right? It was custom when you made it just like that typeface. That typeface was also custom when they made it. So you diminish the one person's creative work because you can't get out of your own worldview and self-centeredness, right? So both sides are going bananas on this one. Like, I think there's some extremities here that are just out of control. And I countered with that person, if you look at a typeface using the online typesetting tool. Isn't that enough for you to figure out if you like it or not? Well, I can't tell. I need to use it. So you're saying you also have no imagination? So you're the best kind of designer in the world? All right, that's enough of the type. When is this video coming out because you already sound super savage and I'm so here for it. I'm going to tear it apart. So the reason why the video hasn't come out or I haven't recorded it yet is because I'm waiting for a sponsor to pay me to do it. So I reached out to one of the tight boundaries, a big one that I respect a lot. I'm like, hey, you guys don't need some sponsored content? I pulled a Chris Voss negotiations, which is I basically presented to them with a no option. So like before I offer this up to somebody else, is there any chance that you would want to do this? All right, so they're like, oh, we're so appreciative that you gave us the first dibs on this. Let me run this up the flagpole, so I'm looking to get paid $10,000 or all their fonts for free or something. Before I release this piece of content, I got to get paid. I got to get paid, guys. OK all right. What else are we going to talk about? What's what's killing you guys right now? Anything? OK, I'm going to go to my deck. If that's what you want. I have something, then. Yes, please. It sounds like a lot of us are having problems seeing our goals. Yes, you want like, we're always sidetracked somehow, and I don't know. Did I miss some conversation previously? It seems like everybody's laughing. No, your son's talking in the background. It's like when you say, I have problems with goals and he's like, like, you're what? He's having a different conversation. But that's all right. Totally Yeah. OK, sidetrack, OK. Distraction OK. Anything else? OK Going once this is for future things for me to work on, I try to position the position statement. Yeah can you ask me it in a question? OK, sure. Oh my gosh. Can you talk a little bit about positioning statement and how? Oh gosh, you know, it's hard with buzzwords and. So how can we do it? How can we go there and just, you know, I'm having some problems with it, with some words and descriptions and, you know, find out exactly what it is. OK I don't want to put you on the spot. Not, but do you have something rough that you can share with me right now? Just I can think about it. Sure do you want me to write it in the chat? Yeah yeah, do that. OK, cool. OK OK. OK, so Angela is saying she's having trouble selling branding. People don't know what it is and they're not necessarily looking for it, that's 100% true. And there's a question is not specifically what people in this group do? You know what it is because people often use the word branding very carelessly. People on my team use it carelessly, sometimes, right? So do we all understand what branding is? I do. OK, explain it to me, Angela. It's your reputation in the marketplace. Um, it's what your customers think and feel about your company, your brand assets. Are part of your brand, but like your logo, your colors and all that. That's part of who you are as a brand, but it's not what you are in total, I guess. So it's more about your reputation in the marketplace. How people perceive you, right, how people perceive you. So when we talk about logo color type. And say even packaging, what percentage do you think that makes up of what our brand is? Probably not, not the majority percentage, would you throw out there? 10 percent, 10, 20 percent, 20% OK, so let me ask you this question. Can we can breathe local color type packaging is like clothes on a person. Yeah, OK. So when you look at a person and you say, look, I know who you are, I know what your mission, vision, values are and your beliefs. How much of their clothing tells us that? Well, not much. Not much. This is the problem is that we have all bias. So whatever we do, we think is really important. So we inflate that right? So what would we say is that if the person starts talking to us and the deeds that they take or they do, would that influence what you think? And a lot of people are like, yeah, that would say a lot more like what you say and then even more so what you do. So until we impact the behavior of a company in their interaction with their customers and their audience, then we're really not touching the branding part. I think it's like that classic illustration of an iceberg and what you see is the branding, the external, the surface. And I think it's important stuff because it does quickly send a signal to somebody's brain. But if it doesn't follow through and everything that's underneath the waterline. Below the surface, then it's really not much that we're doing there. So in that sense, I think when Donald Mueller is attacking or not attacking, diminishing the role of branding, he's referring to the branding that I think most designers think of when they think of branding. So if we say the voice, the things that you say are really important until you start to manage the copywriting. Of the things that you work on, I think then you really can't fully claim that your branding. You're doing an element of branding, but mostly you're doing identity design and packaging. So you have to start to shape the voice. So a lot of us struggle with the word part and rightfully so because we're visual people. So this is where you may need to hire a copywriter to team up with you and write really clever copy. I do that. Yes so this is where now I'm going to say now you're probably moving to the 30 40 percentile of the branding part, maybe even more. And if you start to shape the customer experience and look at the entire user journey to deliver it the light. Now I was talking to one of our interns. Her name is Sarah and she's studying marketing. Excuse me. We're talking about delivering delight. And how do we do that? How do we deliver delight? Because if that's the end result, the net benefit of doing the entire customer experience, how do we do this? I'm going to ask you guys, you smart people. How do you deliver the light? Anybody have any ideas on how you personally do it or you've been on the other end of it where something has happened for you and you think, oh, that's kind of nice, I like that. So my business partner and I have a podcast and a local business owner who I was on the podcast wanted a video from us, but he knew he couldn't afford us because he was just it was for his podcast was a personal gig. So I said, why don't you come on our podcast? We'll use that content to where you can. You can then use it and distribute it as you please. So during that event or during the podcast shooting, he was asking us about gear since he filmed his own podcast, et cetera. We told him how we're trying to get more microphones. So we did the podcast or whatever. Again, this was a free thing for him. So a week later, after the podcast, we get a package in the mail at the office, and it's one of the mics that we're trying to buy another one of those mics and me and my partner, which is like, what? So it felt really good to feel heard from him as a guest and for him to recognize that we were going above and beyond. And then he felt the need to go above and be on. So to answer the question very shortly. He delivered delight by listening and then creating something tangible that he didn't have to do that filled like a need of ours. If that makes sense. OK it was really sweet. It seems it sounds really sweet. Well, but I'm having a hard time extracting like, OK, now listen to your clients. Listen to your customers. No, I think it's what Alan Gibbs says about doing something different, but like being remarkable by doing something different that's not so grand, but something very small that hits on the heartstrings of the people that you serve. So I'm getting us $100 Mike that we were going to get anyways because we usually have three or more people on the show just indicated that he did something different. And because it was so small, it was still remarkable and it hit our heartstrings. So maybe that's what I meant. OK, good. So you need to do something unexpected. Unexpected can come at the cost of $100 or could come at the cost of nothing. You just have to break people's patterns of expectations. That's really all you need to do to deliver delight. So if you look at Johnny cupcakes, when he ships out t shirts, he throws in random things. Not always, but sometimes you'll throw in 20 bill. He'll throw in a doll part because he's a magician and he has lots of doll parts for some reason. So you get a random head or an arm or a leg or something like that. And I know that's freaky and it is freaky, but that is who he is. He's a magician. He's a prankster. He may throw in a whoopee cushion, a candy bar. I don't know what he does, and it's not always a sticker or nothing. And I think the thing is, if we look at loyalty reward programs, OK, check this out. If you go to a certain coffee place and they offer you one of those membership loyalty cards that for every 10 drinks you buy, you get a free drink and you think, wow, they're rewarding me as a customer. And then what happens is when you get that drink, what do you feel? Do you feel like they've taken care of you that there was delight there? I want to ask you guys that question. Everybody's done something like that, right? It could be a drink, it could be ice cream, it could be anything. And how do you feel at the end of that, that customer loyalty reward program? Anybody? I feel like it's deserved. I earned it. You earned it because they set up a system where they promise you, if you buy this, then you get that. So the delight factor is actually really low on that. That's one of the problems. I agree. OK, now check this out. I eat a tender greens a lot and they do also have a reward program, but they've done something a little bit different, right? So there is no stated goal, no stated reward. Just scanning your receipts. And the simple thing is, they gamified it into the status that you have, and I'm going to get into this in a second. So you start out as friends and then you become family. And then you probably become patron or something, depending on how much money you spent lifetime with them. And that's all it is. It just changes the screen. It calls you something different now. So that's merely gamification, and it's giving you a different badge that cost them zero dollars. Now what happens is depending on your activity level and your reward structure, they randomly give you rewards so you can cash in on things. And it's kind of weird. Sometimes it's have a cookie on us. Or take 10% off your next meal or kids eat free. And I think it's just it's the same idea as the stamp card, but now there's a variable of chance and surprise, and I think that's what we like. I think that's also one of the reasons why people buy those, those grab boxes where you give them $20 and you have no idea what's inside because it's like a present. So if you make it feel like it's a present, that's really important. Now, let me tell you something else that people do. And I think really what you're trying to do is to give people status. And so I think in one of the books I think in I came remember which book I've read too many books recently where they talk about when a friend comes in from out of town and they're like asking you, hey, where's a good place to have sushi or ramen or whatever? You're like, oh, don't go to these places, go to this one place. Do I want to do that? Why do I go out of my way? It's like, you know what? This is the best place. Is it because I care about the owners, the business doing well that we have a relationship, that I get a reward stamp or referral program or a kickback fee? And the answer's no. I don't do any of that. I tell people where to eat, what to do, what to buy because it creates status for me. Like, I'm the guy who knows things about things. And that's really what a lot of us are doing. We're looking for status when we buy things, when we refer other people, it sounds horrible on the surface level, but that's really what we're trying to do. So what you want to do is if you're a company trying to shape the brand experience for people is to create a sense of status. How do you do that? So whenever you check into a hotel, you know, it's usually like at least two lines standard cattle line, which is usually the line I'm in or executive gold member and there's a different line. So a lot of times All you have to do is sign up for the program and stay there like three nights in a year and you're automatically put on that. It doesn't cost you more money. It doesn't cost them more money, but it allows you to say, I have status. I'm different, I'm better, I'm superior, whatever it is or I'm important, I'm worth listening to and I'm given special treatment. So you notice these two line things now also even at the theater at AMC, which now I'm part of the a-list, which means I pay a subscription fee. I get to watch as many movies as I want, and they send a message and now a special welcome to the a-list members of AMC. I'm like, I guess that's me. Here's the separate line for you. Do you want us to pick this up or have these popcorn or items ready available for you? So really, if you guys start thinking about this as you help your clients with their business, start thinking about how you can help their customers achieve a sense of status and importance, airlines do this. You've seen this. I don't know if restaurants do this as much. They do usually have a VIP room, but they're probably still trying to figure it out. But restaurants? Oh, what am I talking about? In-n-out burger notorious for having things not on the menu so that you can say, I want an animal style, I want it protein style, or I want a triple triple or a 4 by 4. So that gives you status. Like I've been here so much, I know how to order things off the menu, and that's something that you can do at a regular restaurant to order something and say no sour cream on that, please and swap this out. It gives you status even at a fast food place, but deliberately building that into their culture. They can do that. So it just have to cost any money. OK, so branding. So, Angela, how do we explain branding to our customers? Do they want it? Do they need it? What do you think? And are you doing it? Chris, can I chime in here a little bit? Yeah, yeah, so so I read this book a while back. It's called talk triggers and it's a book by JB. And it talks about, you know what? What are some of the things that you do for the customers. So that they would talk about it because arguably the number one way for people to tell others about you? It's word of mouth. But you know, like I think you mentioned a while back that people don't just wake up every day and thinking about your well-being. So right? So depending on what if it's great, but it's not going to be sustainable. So this guy's actually came up with a framework as well as a process in terms of how to create talk triggers. So basically, there are four elements of it. So it says that it must be remarkable, it must be relevant, it must be reasonable and it must be repeatable. So you may think like, I want to give $1,000 you know, surprise to my customers, but are you going to be able to sustain that over time, right? So what about something that it could be it could be so simple, but at the end of the day, it's worth a lot of. Money to the client, so an example I can think of, it's like, you know, where I come from. The credit card charge you an annual fee. You have to call in to have that annual fee waived. So the local banks here would, you know, they would not even talk to us, right? They would tell us that, well, you need to dial a specific number and you can your card details. We don't want to talk to you. You just keep your details and we'll review your records. And we let you know, like in 3 days time, whether you can, you know, whether we can waive your fees or not. But the experience that I get when I call Amex is totally different, right? I mean, they say that, hey, you know, let me put you in touch with one of our Relationship managers. They come and bought that. They say, hey, Mr Todd, you know, thank you for being a customer. We really want to thank you, you know, for all the years of business that you have given us. And, you know, and by the way, that annual fee thing. Don't worry about it. And oh, by the way, I see that you've been using a cut in this, you know, for dining and this I can I share with you a few benefits that you can get out of using our cuts and that gives me a totally different experience, right? And it probably costs them like nothing. I mean, you know, they don't have to send me anything in the mail, but first they acknowledge me as a customer. Secondly, they can't tell me that, you know, they value my business. Third thing, they took the opportunity to upsell, right? And so so if, if, if later on, I'll put the link to the two. The book called top triggers and you guys should check out the six steps. So in the six steps itself, it talks about the various things and very quickly. Number one, I talked about gathering insights, getting close to your customers. And really, I mean, if we take one step back and we look at the empathy map of our customers, we really talking about what they think, what they feel, what they do and what they're saying. And from there, we are able to align what we want to do in terms of delighting them to how they feel. So, you know, they may say that, you know, as an American Express customer, I want to feel privileged. I want to feel special, I want to feel like I'm the only customer. And so what they do is that when you call them up, they query by name. They tell you how much they value your business. And that is repeatable. And then what's going to happen is that because of that, out of this more experience, you go on and you tell your friends or on a call like this, right? And now everybody knows about it and it becomes, you know, something that it's a word of mouth, but it's because of the experience that you get that you want to talk about it. Yeah right. So that's excellent. I'll look into the book. Thank you for sharing that. So Zappos is an excellent company to look at for delivering delight. So it's usually standard like two day shipping and every once in a while randomly, they do overnight shipping. I think this is true. I can't really remember. Tony Xie is a Diet Coke fiend, so every once in a while when you get your shoes, there's a diet, there's a can of Diet Coke in there or something else. I can't remember what else they do. They do some random things. So I think it's the element of surprise. And I think, Melvin, you brought up something really important, which is make it sustainable, repeatable and relevant to the customer. I think that's really important because you can anybody can do like a one off splash, but that's not going to usually be enough. So here's two ideas similar ideas that costs you nothing. And it also has to do a lot with copywriting. So remember a while back, I think it was like a certain brand of cough lozenge, right? Like a little piece of candy put in your mouth soothes your sore throat. I remember opening up on the inside. There's a piece of paper and a really poorly typeset something and this is like my name is Bob Smith and the third generation of a line of people who make these things, and we aim to deliver an exceptional product to you. If you ever have any complaints or issue. Here's my phone number. Call me. I didn't call the phone number, but I remembered it. I don't even know if that's his number where it goes, but it's fascinating that somebody like, here's my direct line call me. Because he's really trying to be positioned as a family owned business and that access to him and quality to their family is very important. Same thing in the book from Alan Dib, one page marketing plan. He shares the story of CD baby, I think how instead of saying thank you for your purchase as a confirmation email. They sat down and wrote a really long, funny story about how technicians are giving birth to your disk at this moment. And it's coming out of the Ward and they're doing 17 points of inspection and carefully wrapping it and placing it in its carousel or jewel case, and they keep talking about it over and over. It's a hilarious bit of storytelling, and it costs them nothing except for the time to write it. And the CEO attributes that to leading to like having thousands of customers because of how often that message is shared online. So, OK. OK I'm sorry, I have a quick Zappos story. My girlfriend hurt her knee and she had to have knee surgery, so she called Zappos and she said, I'm sending back these shoes, they're high heels. My doctor will let me wear them, and they wanted to know the story. And they said, well, send back all the shoes that are high heels that you can't wear anymore, and we'll refund your money on all of them. She did that, and then about a week later, she got a bouquet of roses from them. Wow so now she tells everybody this story. Yes so Zappos is a very unique company that's built mostly on customer service, and they empower the customer service reps, which is a vital part of their business and their marketing to make decisions. And there's lots and lots of stories like that where there's a couple who are getting married and the shoes don't arrive the day that they were supposed to. And so they call just in a panic the day before, and the customer rep says, OK, where are you going to be? We'll make sure they get there. That rep got in a car, jumped on a plane and delivered it to them the next day via personal delivery and said, here you go. And that becomes a story. So that cost them a lot of money. But what they do is they don't spend money on advertising. Not much. A lot of it comes from that, so this is what we were talking about when it comes to branding, building a reputation impacting how people feel about you and being consistent with that. So the rules of advertising and marketing and branding have changed a lot since the advent of social media and our ability to vet and push back push past the BS. That's what's changed a lot of this. Because you can claim anything you want if you don't live up to it. Nobody cares. And you'll be dismissed. OK so Angela, to your question, before I get into the deck that I have about talking to your customers about branding, it seems like you understand what it is. So what's the problem? She's not here anymore. Sorry, Chris, I'm here. OK can you repeat that? Yes, Yes. So you said, how do I present cell convince? The client about branding. What's the challenge? The challenge, I feel like, is it can solve a lot of business problems, not just one thing that it solves for them, so I don't know how to talk about it. If you have a toothache, go to the dentist. It's not just solving one problem. It could be many things, so I don't know how to talk about it in an overarching way to make sense as to why a business would need it. Think every business needs it right? Because your brand is just happening. You're branding is happening, whether you control it or not. Right, right. So but how do I talk about it? People don't even I don't even want to use the word brand because people think of logos, lay people in our industry, even in our industry, in terms of logos, websites. We've not done ourselves service because we also misused it and perpetuated the incorrect use of the word brand. Yes I don't know how to talk about what, what problem it solves, because I feel like it solves many problems. OK does that make sense? Yeah makes sense. So what did they come to you for the logo? Well, they usually because I'm positioning myself as a branding expert. They usually are curious about that, and they're coming. They've been referred to me by another client, so they'll show them a brochure, so somebody came to me for a brochure. One time and then I asked you a bunch of insightful questions, and she was like, Oh my gosh, I've never thought about this stuff. But yeah, I mean, sometimes they're coming to me for a deliverable, sometimes they're coming to me. I had another gal come to me. She was like, Oh my gosh, I spent all this money on a business coach. I think you are what I was actually looking for because he didn't help me at all. And this is the kind of stuff I was looking for. So I'm like, cool, do I call myself a business coach? Is that more relatable to people? Do they get it more? Yeah, OK, I get it. I get it. So they're coming to you for something. But what they really need is something else, right? Yeah, OK. And if you use the word brand and branding, everybody has a different definition. If you ask 100 people in this room, they're going to write something very different. Right? some will overlap, but it's quite different. So why don't we just talk about what it really does, which is I think you're trying to help them to grow their business and improve the customer experience? Is that something they need help with? So the simple way the code words, right? Because then we have to explain that why don't we just talk like humans and relate to people and work on just using normal language to communicate what it is that you're doing? And I would focus mostly on the benefit to the customer because that's all they want to know. Like, why should I listen to this? Why does this matter to me right now when I have 1,000 things I need to be doing right? And that makes sense. But then I'm like, do I am I? If I say, I'm going to help you grow your business? Am I crossing a line over into marketing, which I don't do? I have a partner that does that. For me, that's a separate deliverable as far as being separate from branding strategy. So if I say I'm going to help you grow your business or they're like, oh, cool, you're going to run my Facebook ads? Well, no, that's not what this is about. I mean, there's a little bit of confusion there, strategy versus tactics that they always want to jump into tactics which looks very appealing to them, right? But yeah, yeah, I think you can define that is I will help you. Excuse me. Design and experience. Sorry somebody is doing construction outside, designing an experience. That's great for your customers to create, delight and build loyalty. I'd like to examine your business and then what we can do is figure out what insights we can pull out together. And then you get to decide which ones you want to execute, and I won't be the right person to execute all of them. OK is that ok? Because what we don't? Yeah, what we want to do is we want to define the goal. Like, defined where we want to be, who we are and how to get there. Great and from that, that's your blueprint, that's your drawings for the house, and then you can have to hire certain contractors. I don't do at all because I can't profess to be an expert at all these things, but these touch points I can do and I can shape so that you want to make sure that we're all working in unison to achieve a singular goal. And that's really important, right? Cool OK. Well, that confirms a lot of what I am saying. Is that what you just said? You know, the blueprint for the house. I think maybe I'm just not talking the right people because a lot of them see it. They're like, oh, yes, I need those and never thought about this. But then they'll probably have a certain amount to spend, and they'd rather spend that on marketing Facebook ads or whatever Google has. So I'm going to show you something right now. Ok? are you in a good place where you can actually hear me? It's nice and clear. Yeah, I can hear you OK. I want to show you how to do this in a Socratic way, guys, because we've been talking about it like, oh, let me just tell you what's up, and that's not the best way to do it. The reason why you want to ask questions is it because it makes the other person feel like they're in control, they're making decisions and making decisions as hard. So setting up the right kind of question makes making a decision much easier. So your goal in the sales process is to aid the person in thinking, helping them to think and helping them to make decisions. Those are two very difficult things, right? So Angela, I want to ask you question. I'm curious. I have some assumptions about why you're on the protocol and why you've joined this community. But what is it that you're hoping to accomplish? I just want to level up my business and do it the right way this time. Build a business that I don't hate going to every day like I did for the last 10 years. Get better clients, make a bigger impact in their lives and their businesses. Wow OK, let me see if I got this right. So you want to level up your business? You've done it the wrong way. So now you're like, you want to do it the right way. You want to love what it is that you do. You will have better clients and make a bigger impact. Did I get that right? Right? OK. So there's a bunch of things here that you've listed what seems to be the most important thing to you to tackle first? Well, I obviously have to build my business. If I don't build my business, I can't help anybody. So I have to. I have been leveling up, so that's never done right. So I'm always doing that. Of course, always learning, always growing. So working on that constant thing I'm doing. But you know, business development and growth has got to be first. If you don't have customers, you don't have a business. Mm-hmm Is that really where you're struggling right now is to get a steady flow of customers in the right ones, right? The ones that not only get what I offer and how it can help them, but the ones that are able, willing and ready to pay for it. so what criteria do you use to determine if they're right besides money? Where they're at in their business, so do they have a compelling challenge to solve? They've got to have been in business for at least 2 to 5 years, so they know their customers well so that we can do the customer avatars and things like that. And profiling. I mean, I have AI have a list that I just wrote out a few days ago, but my non-negotiables that clients, it's a good exercise. I encourage everybody to do that, right? That sounds good. And now I use it in my sales calls like. Are you a decisive person or are you? I can't remember all of them right now. My brain is failing me, but I have them written in my sales script and I asked them, these are the kinds of people I work with. Does that sound like you? So I kind of know up front or sound like something you want to be right? Mm-hmm OK so I'm sorry, I forgot lost track of the original question. No, it's OK. You're doing great. So I'm just trying to keep track with what you're saying because you give me a lot of information. So I'm just going to ask you to slow down a little bit because I can't absorb everything that you're saying, ok? So in terms of that to me before me, neither. OK so when it comes to the right budget, like what is ideally the sweet spot for you in terms of a client that appears to you, that's mature, that's been in business for 2 to 5 years, who knows who their customers are and they have a real problem to solve? What kind of sweet spot are we talking about here? Ideally, they'd have between 5 and 10K to spend. And typically, what did they come to you with? Now, it kind of varies, but usually a deliverable like, oh, hey, I saw this brochure you did for Jack. It's like, well, you didn't see all the work we did before that project, right? The brand strategy, the soundscapes. So I do talk about that. That's how we achieve that. Awesome result for him. So usually a deliverable. Sometimes they're curious about what is this brand strategy thing that we did for this guy? I know what is not. But mostly, I think, for a deliverable. So for a deliverable like a brochure. What's the typical wash? Just talk to someone. On Friday, she had $1,000 so she wanted strategy. So she's a marketer, so she understands strategy. She had like 505 100 for a local design. I'm already starting to see something here. So there's a lot of work that you're doing that's below the surface and the deliverable that people see as in the form of brochure. And in the marketplace for brochures, you can go to Pipp printing Kinko's, and some kid behind the counter can lay it out. So on the surface, it looks the same like you hold your brochure, you hold up their brochure, but it's worlds apart once you get into the content and the messaging. Right? right? Yes, sure. Right? are you charging for the thinking? The planning? The writing. With the clients that are actually working with me. Mm-hmm Yeah yeah, for sure. I have a copywriter. I mean, is that what you sell? Is that what you sell? Like, initially when I'm talking to them, I don't know if I understand. OK, let me rephrase the question. So are you positioned such that you're selling the strategic component of it and the deliverable as an add on or you're selling? Oh yes, sure. And the strategy part is an add on to the brochure. Know, like if you look at my website, I just did it. And it talks about getting an awesome brand strategy for your brand. So you can level up your business. It talks more about branding and strategy and then a quick little mention about deliverables on the product, how it works page. So it's more about strategy and, you know, kicking your competitions, but to the curve and stuff like that, ok? But them that way? OK OK, so if I were to look at your invoice or your proposal, does it say strategic branding, thinking that's an item? And then the brochure is the $1,000. Yeah, so strategy is separated out, ok? How much you charge for that? I have two levels because I'm trying to get some traction, I wish I could charge more, but one by one level, so many packages, 2,500 and the Fuller strategy is 5,500. What's the difference between those two? A lot. I don't have it in front of me on my computer, but basically any package is core elements. And then the Fuller package is something I want other things that I've picked up from other courses that I've taken at brand Academy. So it's more like customer interviews. Oh, I see 5 to 10 customer reviews. We do an internal audit. There's more like writing deliverables. Yeah OK. OK because I'm trying to do this so that everybody can see what's being done here. So if you were my client, I'd actually even say this. But I'm telling you now what I'm going to say before I even say it OK, because I want to help you find the root of the problem pretty quickly. I'm just going to ask you for a little favor from me. It's just to answer the questions as succinctly as possible without the editorial so I can move through this much faster. Ok? because sometimes I'm just looking for a Yes or no, and I'm getting too much information. So if you're charging two different prices, do you think you would. It would be a little bit more streamlined if you just charge, say, a flat $5,000 and just did what you think needs to be done because the clients coming to you uninformed. So I don't think I'd find clients that way because I'm not quite there, so I just want to get more experience. I'm not finding them, so I want to get something going. OK, so that's why I have to practice, because then I can transition them down. They present the first one, and then I'll say, well, that's not within your budget. We can just do the basic right. And so between the two packages. How often are you sell one versus the other? Yeah, I haven't sold the bigger one, but I just came up with it. OK, so all right, so here's what I'm hearing. Here's my summary for you, ok? And then I'm going to stop and then get back into the group here because they see moz raised his hand. Now there's a bunch of things you've recently received on your website, you've recently changed some of the structuring of the selling strategy, so there's a lot of recent things that we don't have enough time with enough data collected so that we know if it's working or not. From the sounds of it, many people are coming to you via the woman thing, the word of mouth advertising. So Jimmy said, you did a great brochure, so I'd like to get a great pressure. And so they're coming to you through that, not necessarily through your website. So your client education process is lengthy and your client onboarding process is lengthy, ok? According to David Baker in his book the business of expertise. When you're wide and poorly positioned, one of the consequences is that you have unqualified customers. So well-positioned company, everybody already knows what you're coming there for, you don't expect to stay at the Ritz Carlton and get it for the Best Weston Price. That's not what you're coming there for, right? So I think a lot of this is just having. And I don't know all your finances, obviously the commitment to say the only way you can work with me. Is for me to help you do strategy, and for that, I charge $5,000. Yeah, I need to make that a non-negotiable. This is how we work, it's one process. And I am trying to do that, but I lost the brochure client, which is like, oh, I just need a brochure. Ok? because the brochure client is just looking for a brochure. Yeah, she got it. It's hilarious. Her husband is a brand strategist who's like, I'm like, why didn't we help you? Like, he can't help you like he's too close to the business, right? Right need people like me? Right? but she gets it. She just didn't have the money, so that's fine. It's like a fancy restaurant doesn't take everybody that walks by just because they are hungry and you don't need to either. So if you start to say, like in my mind, I need to do 5 to 10 k, so the minimum I would charge 5,000 to do the strategic framework. Whatever you want to deliver, I think you're overdelivering, to be honest, for $5,000. Yeah all these interviews, there's too much work, right? Yeah and then hopefully you're able to gather insights for your client. And then move from there to something else, and the deliverables are just incidental either way. OK this is what David Baker calls the two rooms one door. The 2r one d, or he sequences it differently. But basically, you have two rooms. One is the strategic thinking part, and the second room is the execution part. And to get the execution, they must go through the door strategy. There's no other way. So many design firms have two doors so you can go into the deliverables door or the strategic thinking door, but we won't do the other work unless you do it this way. Yeah, and I made that a must, and that's why I lose deliverable work because they don't want to go through that. That's fine. Which is fine. That's fine. OK yeah, OK. I'm going to stop right now. Thank you. You're welcome. OK so Angela, did most of the talking, I think, except for when I was explaining to you guys what's going on? Before I did my summary. And typically speaking, I don't think you heard me explain to her what I'm doing trying to pitch, but I'm trying to demonstrate on the call how I'm helping her by asking her some questions and helping her to arrive at a conclusion. And if you're able to do that, you start to build trust and rapport with the other person and then you can truly hear the problems that are happening in their business. Mo, I'm going to bring you online, and then I'm going to summarize. OK, I apologize in advance if I'm robo voice, but when you and Angela were talking, there's something that you said that I found very powerful and it said, be clear on the fact that on the surface, what we sell is the same. So my question is, how do we separate ourselves when, what, when, what the majority of everyone in the room is selling is the same outside of just the quality of our deliverable. That new strategy. Say what you mean, it sounds the same to everybody that the strategy is the same. No, I think at that point in the conversation it was, you're selling a brochure, someone else is selling a brochure. If you put both brochure side by side, they're both brochures. So if everyone is selling logos, if everyone is selling, I don't know, printed or whatever how we're able to separate ourselves outside of just the quote unquote quality of our work. Because the quality of our work is after they've done business with us, which is pointless because we're trying to win customers. Oh, OK, Mo. Good question. Mo, and everybody that's feeling this way, were you paying attention to the conversation we had prior to all of this stuff, which is people aren't buying the thing? What are they buying? Mostly assurance and status. If you look at the logos from pentagram and a lot of them are really good, but a lot of them, I'm sure you sat there and looked at it like, dude, I could do that. Let's look at Verizon. I think Michael Beirut pentagram recently did the Verizon logo, which is, I believe, some version of helvetica, and they made the checkmark a little bit more angular and everybody looked at like, what? That's all they did. So what designers often do is we critique the end product because the process of arriving there, the decisions that are made prior to arriving at that point is opaque to them. They can't see it. So all they can do and this is what happens in design Twitter, is they dogpile on top of critiquing the end product. I think it was Jimmy Fallon or one of those comedians, Jimmy Kimmel critiqued the Uber logo, said they spent a million doing as an eight months. I think I could typeset that. I think I can pick a font, right? And that's what we're doing is we're focusing on that part. So if you stay in the business of selling the end result, you're going to be in deep trouble because it's hard to justify to a client like how long did it take you to pick that type face? So what you're not seeing is everything else, the thing that was below the surface of that iceberg. So when the higher pentagram, they're probably they have a pretty exhaustive process of doing brand audits, understanding where they're at looking at the history, doing research and doing all these kinds of things and trying to figure out, probably from a very programmatic point of view how many different things this logo touches so that they can design a solution that works for most everything that they use. And that's the consideration that they're having that kid off the street designer doesn't even understand to ask for. So when we have such a massive rebrand in terms of updating a brand refresh, how many different things that's going to touch on, how much money they're going to spend and just purely switching out all the old stuff, they're going to want to make sure they're working with the right company. So of course, they're going to reach out to. Whoever the top three, top five. Identity designers there are in the world in their mind, this is the power of positioning and focus. So they're not buying the end product. They're not buying the brochure, if you can start to understand that, then you will talk about yourself. You'll position yourself very differently. So for Angela's problem, when a client comes to her and says, oh, I heard you could do a brochure, can I spend $1,000 for one of her first questions should be OK, this fantastic? Why do you need a brochure? What compelling business problem. Are you trying to solve? What will not making a brochure? Do for your business, how would that impact? So I have some questions here, I'm going to share this because I just posted this. I found this article. Written by trina, I think that's her name to trina, darina Allen for Forbes magazine, and she talks about strategic thinkers, and I just posted this on Instagram, so you guys can refer to this later. OK and what she's talking about is I'm just going to read it verbatim. Basically, I took parts of the article and I just edited down so that there are fewer words. I like less words. All right, so I'll read it to you guys. Excuse me. So do you think strategic thinkers dig deeper with regards to analyzing processes, developing and applying performance metrics, collecting data and producing analytics to make more informed decisions? Let me just stop right there. How many of you guys are doing that? How many guys have a formal process? Of analyzing. Of defining performance metrics, this was asked in the chat. Have you guys have any quantitative metrics of what brain can do for a business? Well, you don't do that after the fact. You do, you do that before the engagement. What are we trying to do? How do we measure success? If you are in a room with 500 designers that are not a part of this group and you just ask your client that question, how will we measure if this brochure is successful, you will most likely have separated yourself from every other person that potential client has talked to because nobody asks these questions. Nobody, because we don't care. We just want to make it look good. We want it to be like premium, modern, simple, bold. None of that really matters. And if you had to make an uglier brochure to get more business for your client, would you do it? Probably not. So we're trying to help. Find enough information and data points so that we can make the right decisions together, and we could discover in the dialogue that the client has a problem. And the brochure is not going to solve it. We're looking in the wrong place. There are there's a quote here I've included at the end of this slide deck is there are no right answers to wrong questions and most likely. Most creative people are asking the wrong question. How do you want this to feel? Well, is that going to solve a problem for them that you can measure later? So the key to being more strategic, whether you want to be a strategist or not, I'm not advocating everybody needs to do that is to just to ask better questions. OK, so here are Serena's questions copied verbatim edited slightly. And if you hear these questions, which I'm going to run through, so you guys have this on record for yourselves is why do we need to care about this issue? So you can use this for anything. It's written in such a way that you can use this verbatim, so I'm going to advise you guys to write these down. Screen capture this and then print it out and have them on your desktop every time you're going to talk to a new client. What happens if we don't decide on this issue, is the status quo acceptable? Why or why not? What outcomes are we trying to achieve? That's a great one, who cares about them and why? Well, my boss needs to see x, y and z happen. And if not, I don't get a promotion. OK, now I understand. What are our biases, prejudices, interests or values? Are they congruent with the defined decision options, whom would this decision mostly affect? This is an important question. And how? Because sometimes the people who are the decision makers or the deal breakers. Aren't present. Here's the last five. What are the positive and negative consequences of this decision and what is this based on? Who are the short term and long term beneficiaries? Who gets to define them? What is the worst result this decision can bring? Can we live with that? That's a great one. What are forces for or against this, this decision, do we care. Why or why not? What is the second choice option or fallback position? Is it viable and how do we know? So those are, I think, golden and all I had to do is type in strategic thinking and it's like popped right up on Google. So the internet, the world is full of very valuable information. You just have to learn to start thinking like, what am I looking for? And to learn to parse through content really quickly, which I think I've done. I've developed that skill already. I can comb through so much stuff and then I'm going to share with you guys, the rest of the world, right? So it gets into this, the whole strategic divide here, which is what exists between strategists. Some of you guys consider yourselves at, and some of you guys consider yourself purely as an aesthetic designer. And the way that you do this is you have to just learn to ask better questions. So those 10 questions should go a really long way in any of your client interactions, so instead of sitting around, perhaps the question was and I'm not picking on Angela, I'm not trying to, at least is how do I talk to my client about branding and selling this? Well, you don't. You don't at all, you just ask them some questions, and through the process of asking them those questions, you start to demonstrate expertise in strategic thinking right away. So this is always a conflict, right? Many people call themselves strategists in this group, many. So can't you use your own strategy to solve your own problem? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe then that's a case of trying to read the label inside the jar. I'm not sure. Maybe because we have low self-awareness, it's very difficult for us because we're too close to the subject and we're plagued with biases that we have. That we can't see it. And this is where probably like where some of the comments are coming in from the peak performance partner is I need a partner, man. People are ghosting. People are not consistent. Well, you know what? Just find a new one. Just say, I'm sorry, it seems like you're busy. I'm going to try to. I need consistency when it comes to this, so I'm going to work with somebody else. All right. You need to be able to do that for each other, so apply your own craft and thinking to yourself, first and foremost. This is where Mr. Sean toboggan and I got into a little bit of a debate where I said, so for you, do anything, do all things B all things right, it's cool. Be generalists, everything is cool. Life is the journey. Just explore, explore, explore. Everything's cool. So when your client comes in or do you tell them to do the same thing? That immediately your logic gets checked. So I'm going to teach you something some of you guys have been part of the business boot camp, right? I'm going to teach you something right now. When we're dealing with objections. One of the Socratic six that I share with the group that take that course is called the Hall of mirrors. The Hall of mirrors, if you imagine, like two mirrors, look at each other. It goes into infinity, but each time you see the reflection, it gets less defined, less clear, and he just keeps all going like that, right? So when the client says to you, I need a brochure. The Hall of mirrors, like why is a brochure important to you right now? Tell me more about this. What's driving? So you just whatever they say, you go into it and you start to like, repeat it, repeat it until you can get to why the important thing to understand here is there is a logic. A line of logical argument, and I forget what it's called, and I shared it with the group already, it's something like it's what is it reductio absurd or something like that? I know it sounds like Harry potter, but basically what you're trying to do is you're trying to reduce the argument down to its most absurd point. You're looking for that, so you're taking whatever they say and you're drawing all the way down. Into its most absurd point. Now I'm going to share this story with you. But mind you, like, I don't fully support what it is I'm about to share with you, but the idea. The concept is really, really powerful. I normally listen to NPR, KPCC radio, but when I was in San Diego at comic-con. What was on the radio on that same channel was a talk show. I didn't realize it until after the fact that it was a Christian talk show. So no offense to anybody, but they were arguing against. Trans people identifying as trans. I didn't realize it until after the fact. Because the guy who was speaking on the radio was a guest. And he is a very eloquent, soft spoken guy. So I was like just mesmerized by like how he was conducting the conversation. He says so trans people identify as male or female, even though biologically. Their male looks all like because I identify as female, I am therefore female. So it's like this argument in reducing things down to the absurdity, says this. So if you identify as anything, then therefore you are that thing, right? So he's like, do of this case where a person, a man has identified himself as a dog? He thinks he's a dog. And he eats out of a Bowl on the floor. He's a 40-year-old man. And he changed his name to like Rex or something or spot, so he self-identifies his dog, although physically no parts of him say that he's a dog and they go on and on and on. So it's like a person who suffers from anorexia. Identifies as being fat and overweight, even though they're 85 out. So by all measurements that we can see physically there, 85 pounds, but they think they're 280 pounds or something, so they want to go on a diet. They want to have liposuction. They want to have operations. So he says we would not treat the mental illness. With the physical treatment for anorexia, for this person who thinks they're a dog. So why would we do gender reassignment, because some of these self-identifies as this, we would not do that, that would be considered malpractice in every other aspect. Now I don't agree with the conclusion. I'm just trying to help you illustrate this concept of reducing things down to the absurdity. It did make me pause and think about this. So when a client comes to self-diagnose or saying things like you're too expensive or my cousin can do this or whatever it is, try to use the Hall of mirrors to reduce it down to this really faint thing and have them look at that. None of which is I'm making a position. I'm just repeating back to them what they said, but reframed slightly differently. I don't know why I'm going on this trying to help you, because some of you guys are dealing with client objections. So if your strategists start to incorporate argument logic arguments and a frame of asking questions in the Socratic approach, and then therefore you start to demonstrate that you are a strategic thinker, OK, I'm going to pause for a second. I'm way over my time today and I have even touched my deck yet. Now I'm not going to obviously any questions thus far. One thing, Chris, thank you for all that. I know there's been a thread on the future group talking about all this anyway. Bob chimed in with some good information that the client just wants the usual sort of thing. Want brochure website? What if you want to eventually sell strategic branding and thinking without the deliverable? Is that possible or not even possible because. They don't know what it is, 100 percent, he said. 100% 100% I've done it. No deliverables. So that's where I'd like to go in my business. Yeah and I think if you can sell the thinking part alone, you should do it. And if that's what you should call it something else, then because the word branding brand strategy doesn't resonate with people. So I'll have to think about what to call it. Yes, because it instantly goes to the crafting the making part, right? Yeah so you could say, like I do business design, customer retention, whatever it is that you want to do and frame it as a benefit. Cool OK. But then you need to demonstrate that you understand this, right? So your dialogue on the website, everything that you do is geared around this. No OK, thank you. Let's take a pause here. I'm going to quickly preview what the heck I was going to talk to you guys about, but I'm not going to do it. Ok? and we'll do it next time, and then we can open it up to any of the other kinds of conversation. So here we go. What I was going to talk to you about is the business of expertise. Some of the things I picked up from reading David Baker's book. And you've heard me say this before, and we've gotten into an argument that people think expertise is a destination, that you arrive one day and it's just an ongoing journey where all self improvers self learners. And so it's scary to think about arriving at a place, and that's why a lot of us avoid it. It's just realize you're on a journey. And today, you know, more than you did yesterday. And I feel that way every single day. In the book, he says something to the effect of at one point, everybody is an imposter for a little while until the game credibility. So it's OK to say I'm on this path towards becoming a strategic planner. And if I can apply what it is that I've learned thus far to help you in your business and solve some of your problems, then I'd be glad to. But I'm going to charge you money to do that. If you're OK with that, then I'm OK with that. So I'm going to jump to this slide here. I'm going to show you everything because we'll get into it. Whoops, I didn't mean to do that guy. Sorry I meant to do this. OK, so here's the thing I flipped his diagram, I don't know why he went from right to left. I want to go left to right. Most of us start off being undifferentiated. We're like all like everybody else. We do branding. We do logo. We do websites right? And what we have to use is courage and focus to narrow down who we're going to speak to. Unfortunately, many of us stop prematurely thinking that we have a narrow enough niche. He goes, no, keep pushing. There is an ideal sweet spot that you get to. Now most of us are afraid of shooting onto the other side, which is now there's not enough people to serve. That's the fear. Long before you get there, you'll find your sweet spot and you can define your sweet spot as having 10 to 20 competitors doing. What it is that you do. So if you want to do a vegan dog treat. Bakery for, you know, only in. Kentucky or something, I don't know. For lesbians. Well, your market is so tiny now you're so niche down that you basically have no not enough opportunities and opportunities is important and you can judge opportunity by looking at are there 10 to 20 competitors in your space? Not 2000 just 10 to 20, and there's a good reason why you want to have competitors in your space because it's important enough for other people to solve. You're not the only one now. Really big companies can afford to be the only one, but that's a lot of risk, and I don't think you need to take that risk. Here's something else that he talked about this idea of specialization has been around since civilization. That in the early days when we're all Hunter gatherers and farmers, we realize some people are better at killing the lion or the deer or the elk or whatever. And some people were really good at medicine or storytelling, keeping the oral history of the tribe. Some people were really good at tending herding farming. And so instantly, we already found specialization built mostly around our physical and mental abilities. It's just that over time now, a lot of the physical abilities have been stripped away. And so now we're just left with our mental abilities. So this is where a lot of us run into some crazy, crazy area. OK and really, what we want to do is we want to niche down in the vertical positioning based on industry, and there's something called the Knicks. You guys should look up the SAIC as it stands for the North American Industry Classification System. It's pronounced snakes. Snakes like nakedness, but snakes. And the thing is, there's a simple test to know if you found it, because he asked, can you buy a list of customers? Are people interested in this thing because he says if you do buy vertical by industry, there will most likely be a trade organization, a newsletter or conference or summit because they have common problems in trying to find answers to. And you're looking for that right now, most of us are looking at horizontal positioning, unfortunately, when we're a service company, that's what we were doing to and horizontal positioning is based on demographic like Latinos or Asian-Americans. And also defined by your area of expertise, your practice like we do graphic design, but not for an industry, the way that you want to do this is to do this. So that spot in the middle is where you want to be, I'm for this industry and this is my area of practice. And there's other things that we can get into. I don't want to get into it right now. OK, I'm going stop, this will go more in depth if this is important and something that you guys want to learn more about. OK, I'm going to break right now. I'm going to try to wrap up this call at this moment and open it up to you guys. What do you guys want to talk about what's important in any kind of questions lingering and I'll just write them down. I'm not going to try to answer them right now, though. Was everybody agreeing with Mo about? Is most here? Yeah, when you showed the examples to the questions by Tina, I believe her name was. What are we? I think there's a level there's a gap in learning how to follow up with the questions and how to listen to them, to be able to ask good questions after them. There's you can easily ask the question, but how do you maintain the conversation in a way that leads you to that end result that you want? Wait, I don't remember anybody named Tina. That her name's not Tina then. The Instagram carousel that you made with the strategic questions, the arena to arena for women, arena to arena. And that's having a migraine right now that you just did that. Look at her expression like, Oh yeah, you know, it's very normal. OK, go ahead. Go, go back to that. Yes so I don't think the hiccup is in asking the questions once we find them. I think the hiccup is maintaining a healthy dialogue to lead them and lead us to the end answer that we want. That's fruitful to help them. So my question is how what do we need to be looking for after asking these questions? How should we be listening and how do we ask better follow up questions to maintain the dialogue? OK, and we have a call on that. Yeah, but let me start with this for a second, ok? This is going to be a very difficult thing for a lot of us, and there's reason why we're not all successful at strategic thinking and asking Socratic questions. The reason why is, let's say, your brain power. Let's say you have access to hundreds of your brain power. Let's just say how much percentage would you say is dedicated to listening to other person? Versus I need to sell you something. This is where the real problem comes in. OK, so when I'm talking to a customer. If I'm pretending to be one of you guys, I'm thinking I need to on my website, I need to sell this logo and I wonder what the budget is, and I have three or four things I'd like to make for them. But and so there's just talking and you're like, not even listening to this. It's hard enough when you give somebody your undivided attention, which I was trying to do with Angela while thinking about managing this call and where just going and then the chats going crazy. And it's like, I got to focus. I got to listen. But luckily, I'm not here to sell Angela anything, so at least I'm not distracted by that. So if you want to do full value listening in the Socratic approach, you must stop thinking about selling. You must be 100% focused on the other person. That's where your energy is supposed to go. What is the problem, so if you were to ask somebody one of those questions, I need to pull it up because I don't have it memorized yet. No, that's not it. One let's say somebody comes to you and asks, you know, like, let's you and I do this, ok? You do mostly video work, right? Are you getting ready for this or what? I see, that's my right. All right. So this comes to you and says, we could do this both ways. Why don't you just be the customer right now and ask me to do? And then it'll take a pause while read through the questions to see which one I want to ask you. Go ahead. Yeah, love your work. We need to create a video to build awareness for our company. OK, so now I'm going to scan through the questions, right? Love you work, so I say thank you. Thanks for loving our work. You need to build awareness for your company. OK, so the question I want to ask you is the third question from the list of trina, which is what outcomes are you trying to achieve? And who cares about this and why? Now, just listen. Yes, I'm the owner. The outcomes is we're not getting enough walk throughs, which in turn is not leading to enough conversions. So I think the video will help people know about us, which will lead them to come in. OK, so you're using the term, I'm not that familiar with when you say walk through, what does that mean walking? Sorry, I said walk through is walk ins. So we're retail, so we sell a product, but no one knows that we exist in our community. OK so when you say enough, how much is enough? I mean, right now we're getting are you getting? We're getting like 10 people a day. OK we want to bump that up to like, see, I'm giving you specifics, a client's not going to talk like this. Yes, they are. OK OK. We're getting like 10 people a day. We're getting like 10 people. OK, I'll tell you what. Sorry? be a random client. I don't care. You don't have to help me. I'll get it out of you. Either way, I know you will. So just not getting enough walk ins, man. We're just not getting enough walking. Right so usually what we have to do is we have to have some kind of benchmark Mo so that we can measure. If we've made any improvement. So would you think that there are hundreds people walking through that that's not enough or what are we talking about? I mean, right now we're probably told me, don't. Come on. I'll keep out of you either way. All right. Say 10 people. So what would our goal be then? I mean, if we can 2x that, that'd be nice, that'd be really nice. Yeah Wow. If we can 2x that, OK, so you said a consequence of getting not getting enough opportunity with walk ins is you can only convert, even if you convert a 100 percent, you still only have 10 customers, right? Yep. OK. So is there an issue once they get inside the store that we can do something to improve the conversion process or you got that under control? And no one's ever asked me that I'd have to probably monitor how my associates handle the customer interaction to answer that better. OK so I'm going to assume that you have some sales people on the floor, right? Mm-hmm Have they been trained? And who's trained them? Yeah, our department leads training each department. OK, so without getting too deep on this, I'd like to investigate that with you because I don't want to make any assumptions that the way they're taught to sell and help customers is the right way. so while we're in the breaking between before you hire me to do any work, I'd like for you just to watch them just from afar. Don't make any comments and make some notes. Yeah, but what about needing that video sooner rather than later? Oh, we'll get to that in a second. I just want to hit all your points. You're not getting enough walk ins. You're not therefore not getting enough conversions. And your answer to all of this is you build awareness through making a video, right? Mm-hmm OK, now what I want to do is to take a step back with you and say, like, what can we do to generate enough interest? What kind of ideas? And let's just take a step away in the world of possibilities. How might we build or draw more people to the store? I guess that's what I'm hiring you for. Right, we're going to brainstorm together. I mean, the biggest thing about us is that we're not like a national retailer because we're a small business. I think we can really entice people that we can take care of them from a high touch standpoint. OK, so I'm going to write down right now, the global business objective that you were trying to accomplish right now is how might we increase traffic to the store? Right? and going go from 10 to 20. Essentially we wanted to exit. Is that about right? Well Yep. OK, so I got that right, so let's just ideas, let's just generate ideas not worrying about feasibility or anything. OK, so whenever there's a grand opening or what is it called the Grand reopening or something? Is there some stunts like we want to just generate ideas, so you and I will sit around and we'll generate idea after idea. Right? I'm not going to go through this for real. OK right? All right. And oh, only one of them says video. You mean? All right, so some kind of stunt, like what kind of business are you in again? Well I'm actually like embodying a client conversation I've actually had, so this is a pharmacy, bro. A pharmacy? OK oh, oh, OK. So to draw people to a pharmacy, do you think like we can run a flu shot campaign or something like that during flu season? Surprisingly, we just introduced a new product that's really hot. CBD oil and we only have one competitor in the city. So I think that would be a big attraction point and we wanted to make a product video around that to let them know that we're selling that so they can come in and buy it. OK, so so alternative medicine, all kinds of things, you know? So you just make a list of things. A lot of different things. Right? OK, then what we would do is we would take it on this impact effort graph, right? And we would take each one of your ideas. Let's just say, I don't know. There's like a stunt, you just call it a stunt. OK, something that happens physical, that attracts people to the store. And what we do is we start this with the lightning decision jam model and we start in the middle, would it be easy or hard for us to organize a stunt? Easy, easy, like, super easy, like an off the chart, easy. Well, there's still some coordination. You still have to do some event planning, right? Yeah and if we had to say with this impact traffic because that's the global business objective, right? Do you think that would draw people to the store, to the pharmacy? I think so. OK, I'll put it over here. Ok? and let's have another idea. Let's talk about the video now. We want to make a 60 second promotional video that's going to go out there is that easy or hard to do? And in the middle, it's not that easy to make a video now. Depending on the video, so it's hard, it's harder for sure. OK, and do you think that's going to be impactful or inconsequential to our goal of increasing foot traffic? You know, now that you keep asking these awesome questions, I really think one video is not going to do damage. I would. They would probably need to see multiple pieces of content from us, so well, probably not only that. Well, first of all, how do we get this in front of who, whose? How do we get them to see it? How do we get them to see and remember it and then remember it and take action. So you can see it may not be as impactful as you think. And it may be harder than you imagine. So we would just repeat this process until we find the one that's like, do this now. Right, right? Watch this. So hard and never do this right, but hard and impactful. Plan for this. Right this is on a to do list. Because it's easy, but it's not doing much. Well now we can make decisions together. And you're doing this, let's say you've already had the first meeting, you've built rapport, they now you're getting into the nitty gritty meeting where you're probably going to close a deal. You're doing this then. Don't worry about tactics. And you just challenged me. I'm just answering your challenge, first of all, my friend, which is how can you ask one question and then follow up? I only ask you one question, right? Mm-hmm And then everything else tells me the next question to ask most of because I don't care what it is. I'm selling to you and I'm just listening to you. And even if you're one of those sketchy clients who's unsure and just indecisive, I'm going to help you make decisions. Even this very graph helps you make a decision, does it not? Very true, and then I make you commit. That's all you want to do is increase traffic to the store. I already know my mind. The video is not the solution. Too many steps. so can I ask a follow up? Only if I've satisfied the first part. You have. Are you sure? OK, hold on. I have closure peanut gallery time in here gallery. OK, we'll move on. OK, go ahead, follow up, and then I want to talk to nat, and then we got to get out of here. I lost the follow up. Good, see, I did that and that you're up. You had your hand up for a second. Your Mike's not on. Sorry about that. Yeah, I asked you about the positioning statement, but I guess after our conversation today, I have a clearer view of what I'm doing. OK, so thank you. I love that I answered a question without answering that question. Yeah lovely. Yeah, Yeah. So what happens when you use a shotgun? You hit something no matter what. Sometimes not the right thing. OK, guys, thank you. Yes, go ahead. Who's talking? OK, go ahead. Yeah so you led them to this conclusion that the video is probably not the best. And say that conclusion isn't the service that you offer. How do you transition that conversation? So it's like, do you just end the conversation? Like, we don't offer that I can recommend you someone like, where does the conversation go from there once you've reached that conclusion? There's a couple of things that you can do. First of all, you had to get paid for your thinking, right? Let's just pretend like that was paid for, and I'm happy I got paid $5,000 bucks and I don't have to do any more work. This is fantastic. Angela should be like dancing in the streets right now, if that were the case, right? But here's what you got to do. OK And then what you need to do is then you probably have to have some kind of follow up like based on this. Here are the five things so you're going to write and document. So a strategist mostly does thinking and writing as the product of their thinking. That's a tangible part, right? So you write up like, here's the summary. Here's what we're trying to do. Here's what we think might work. And now we have to then hire people to do this, the very next exercise that we do right there. And then with them, it's a sign of budget to each one of those things. They say, like, OK, if we want to do some kind of stunt where we invite a celebrated author to answer questions, do a book signing, that's a stunt that'll get people there. 500 of his followers will show up. Awesome So now we assign a budget to that, like what would a cost, what do we need to do? What kind of rentals? So we start to put together ballpark prices against each one of those things. And then we would offer to them. Here's a couple of options. We have one. You hire whoever you want. They do. It all is good. You can ask me for which I will, but I'm going to charge a little management fee on top of that. Or you can have me manage the whole project. So you have a single point of contact. Spock spoke a single point of contact. And I'll manage it all for you, but I won't be the person doing that. The work.

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