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Need Work Now What To Do

#
113
Chris Do
Published
April 18, 2020

Chris Do leads an open agenda call on still getting work when balancing the fine line of burnout.

Read Transcript
Here we go, everybody. This is call number 113. It's an open agenda call and I've already fielded some of your questions. The thing that we're going to start off this week talking about and I'm going to stop here. Excuse me. The thing that we're going to talk about is Jeremy's question, I think it's going to hit a lot of people, and I think I saw all kinds of people already comment on this and offer to give Jeremy some advice. So Jeremy, I hope you get an opportunity to watch this video. Maybe you're already in this group that's cool or on this call today, I should say. Now here's the thing I'm going to do my best to keep this call around one hour because tonight I'm going to try to do a call at 9 o'clock. I've got a lot of things going on. I have to pack for another trip, but that's OK. We're going to do the call at 9 o'clock. So if you want a double session, if that's possible, let's do it. OK, so Jeremy's question now let's frame this. Jeremy says he's watched all the videos, he's done all the steps and he's not getting any work. What is going on? Now I want to open it up for everybody to jump in. I think Mo hadn't had a thought or opinion on this about how he's framing it. And then I think maybe people are looking for a mix of tactics and things like that. Ideally, what I like to do is keep this conversation broad. So it's mostly or it's applicable to most of the people in this group versus saying, well, Jeremy, this typeface isn't right or that case study is wrong because it's very specific to him. OK, so we want to make this a group shared learning experience. Samoan McHugh, you up here? What are your thoughts on that question? Can you just restate your observation? I know in here, isn't he? I could have swore, he commented. I've been here frozen more than me, like, oh, Ismail, yeah, Mo, you Mo. Oh, oh, I didn't think I had that big of an observation. No, no, I don't have I don't have much on that. No, don't. Don't make me read what you wrote. All right. This is the way it's going to be like, make me. Make me rich. I'm going to read what you wrote. OK or not? Or can you do it? So I don't have to search for anything. I could do it. Yeah, I remember. Please don't be shy now, huh? No, no, I'm not shot. Trust me. I'm not sure you said, what's the question? You said, let's reframe it as a question. I think my observation was Jeremy's at a point of potential burnout. He may be he may be at a place emotionally that is maybe skewing his perspective to see the potential of his output. And maybe there's just something that needs to be reiterated for all of the work that he's done thus far to give him some better Roi. That's that's where I think he's at. Just OK reading. But I think Zach expounded on it a little bit better beyond just burnout in patient. OK OK, so I think your observation is he's the net result of his efforts is leading him to burnout, right? Because if you try to do something over and over again and you're doing your best effort and it doesn't result into anything tangible. Yeah, I think that's going to lead to burn out really quick and it's going to lead to probably anger and just total frustration and just maybe apathy at some point. Like nothing matters. And that's been hard to because he's been going at this for months at this kind of rate where work he would do, he would do like workshops and stuff to try to drum up business, and those weren't going anywhere, either. Oh, so more about this? Can you expand on that? OK I hope so. Yeah, sorry, I'm driving at the moment, but on the road? Yes so. Right over the past couple of months, we've Rachel me and a couple of the other Pacific Northwest people have all been doing a group call every other Thursday just trying to get through many of the things that we're struggling with and giving each other tips. But it's been very hard watching Jeremy go through this because a lot of what he needed was what can he do right now? Advice and not really the advice he needed like actionable, actionable steps because we get into the cycle where we all give each other to these high level tips. But he needed something that would work for him for the next week, the next month versus the long term stuff because he's doing all the long term stuff right, so to speak. He's doing motions. It's just not drumming up results for him, right? OK, so let's make this clear, then the high level stuff is fine. He's working on that. But when you're runaway so short to zero, you have to pay the Bills and you have to put food on the table and it creates a certain mindset. Now we're kind of in a tough spot. He's been painted into a corner for a number of different reasons, so let's begin the conversation there. So if you are in a position like this where it seems like no matter what it is that you're trying to do, you can't seem to onboard clients, you can't seem to get any real traction and you're looking at this month's rent or whatever bills that you have that are stacking up, it's going to create immense pressure on you. So now let's reframe that to say, like, what's the question as it relates to the tactics that he needs to take? Can you help us out there, Darren or Rachel or anybody else that's kind of deep in this with them? You don't have to raise your hand, you can just say something that you want to say something, go ahead. It was more global. I think everyone had addressed the positioning, and we're not talking about that. We're talking about tactical stuff now, obviously not strategic stuff, right? I mean, I would be on LinkedIn hitting headhunters up, trying to find freelance positions, short term freelance positions. And, you know, based on the amount of experience. He's got, there's got to be something out there for him, especially in Seattle. I mean, I would start there immediately on a high level. It just felt to me like, you know, looking at his website, it's all the things that people talked about positioning how is he measuring the content that he's putting out into the world? He said that he's only getting three to five people liking and interacting with his content. So what kind of research is he doing on his content before he produces it? Making sure that, you know, there's an audience for it? And then what is he doing to sort of pivot with that content? So stop making the same stuff over and over again? What's a new angle for it? Right? you know, those are the things that jumped out to me immediately when I looked at his work and his social content. OK and I want to ask you this, if you are in this position or you were in this position before. What size job are you looking for? What kind of thing are you looking to get? If you're in this position where you have 0 or 1 way, there's zero customers, nothing is happening. No leads whatsoever. I also want to wrap my head around like what size of job or customer are you looking for? Sort of in this position, I'm looking for around $100 for another 1,500. OK for logo. Perfect now, I don't think Jeremy is in this call on this call, right? I am. Oh, you are, Jeremy, what are we doing your stealth mode? There you are. We'll bring you up right now. Jeremy, what kind of job are you looking for and how much? Primarily brand identity. And I'm going anywhere from three to five grand, mostly because my minimum just to get by on a month here in Seattle is about three grand. So I've dropped it down drastically lately just to get work in churn and, you know, cover bills and things like I've taken a logo job for $200 here recently just to keep things rolling. But the connections that keep coming through with that sort of work are those low dollar bills. You know, it's not making the difference. OK, well, I have good news for some of you in this group. I just got hit up on LinkedIn and somebody asked me to help them with the logo. Exactly and ask them, I can't do it, but I can refer you to people in my network. What's your budget? He said between like, look at how he anchors me between 3,000 to 5,000. And normally I'd say, OK, so can you do five thousand? I would normally say that, but I don't say that. I try to ignore his anchors and say, what's the best that you can do? And he just responded this morning, I can do 8,000 now, I'm pretty sure he could do more than that, but let's just say I'm negotiating on your behalf like all of your behalf because I'm not going to decide who gets the work right. So there's an $8,000 job that's on the line right now, and I'm not saying it's exclusively for any one person in this group. But here's the thing. When I sent him links to your work. Are you positioned in such a way that you can just take that down because let's say there's five or six people, I'm going to forward to them from this group alone if I do that. Will he pick you? Now we have to get into the specifics of your site and what you're presenting. Now, Jeremy, I'm on your site right now, and if you guys don't know, you can go to think tank designs with an think tank design satcom. Now I'm stuck. Nope, that's not it. No think tank, creative studio. OK I clicked on the wrong one. Give me a second here. There we are. Sorry, I had the wrong to figure out what you were just looking at. No, no. Here we go. Think tank creative dot studio. There we are. I had the wrong tab open, that was the wrong. OK, so if I go to Projects right now, which I did. I see our work and I see three thumbnails and they look like case studies to me. Actually, I scroll down and see six of them. So here's one thing I'm going to say right away is if your position to do identity design, which one do I want to click on if you were just a customer, if you're this guy who wants to have somebody help him with a logo identity design, which one would you click on? Everybody look at this right now. I'll paste this into the chat right now so everybody can see it. OK, we're going to solve this problem together. What I'm trying to do is look at this from a global point of view, like everybody has the same problem and try not to do this specifically for one person and turn it into a private coaching call. OK, if everybody is trying to imagine their site and somebody needs x, fill in the blank. Somebody needs a logo. Somebody needs product design. Somebody needs strategy. They go and click on your projects or you work. What are they supposed to click on? So tell me what I'm supposed to click on, Jeremy. You know, honestly, the end of their case studies, they blooms or the comet car story or the medical posters. I don't specialize in brand identity and these are picked up just from everything that I've been forced to do since opening my company, like two years ago. OK this is the only work that I have other than my master's degree work from a couple of years ago and stuff from previous corporations. OK, so I want to pause on that. OK, so Jeremy is saying that he's done work as a student and then these are jobs he's been able to pick up and he's showing that work. Now, if he wants to be a brand identity designer, he needs to show. Breanne identity design and be really strong with that because imagine if I were to pull another website out from this group who just specializes in identity design. They really want this $8,000 gig. I imagine that their site is going to be scattered with really powerful, amazing identity designs. But this is going to be one of the problems here, so maybe it's the chicken and egg kind of thing. Jeremy sitting back and Jeremy, of course you can say whatever you want. He's thinking sitting back, like, do these are the only projects I've been able to do. So this is what I'm going to show. And that seems really logical. But I'm going to say, do not show work that doesn't fit within the position that you selected for yourself. Regardless, if it's real and paid or not, you are much better off doing what Steve or Boyne had done for quite some time, which is to crank on logos or exploring monograms or doing whatever it is that he need to do. And you keep presenting the same thing over and over again. So that you start to build traction on a singular focus. Is on this call and he had asked that to everybody. What is your positioning? And he wrote a formula in there, and I'm going to look it up in a second. But just to narrow it down because the one that I can remember is service for industry. What is it that you do if you want to say you do brand and design consultancy, then I imagine I'm not going to see a lot of deliverables. It's going to be high level stuff. So you're looking for a very different kind of client. Now your answer might have been very different, Jeremy. If you're sitting on $20,000 of surplus income of runway and then you're going to not say, I don't do identity design, I do brand strategy because you have that cushion. But selling brand strategy is quite difficult and there are fewer people who know what that is and want to buy that. So let me ask you something, if the runway were there and we asked you the same question, what kind of work is that you're looking for? What would you say? The work that I'm looking for. Is the work that somebody wants to make it a real, decent business and is missing the things that actually need to be implemented to make their business work and the brand that needs to be designed to match that business and bring it into the world. That's the work I've been doing that is pivotal to me for the last year and a half, helping people and small businesses figure out exactly what that business is and grounding that with, you know, brand strategy, creative strategy, design, strategy and connections in the world, and links with how they can actually make that business function and become more efficient. Mm-hmm I don't know what you call that. I think that's called brand strategy or business design or something like that. And I've had plenty of people tell me, yeah, that might be what it is, but it doesn't make any sense. And I keep sticking with it, which is the reason my headline on my page says brand strategy and business design. Yeah OK, so let's go back to that. Let's just say this is what you want to do. Brand strategy and business design. OK, so that means that the person who's looking for this logo design is not going to call you, per se. They're just not going to call you. You're most likely not going to get that, just like if the person is looking for animation or illustration or photography, they're not going to call you. So you've picked a lane and you want to stay in that lane. And that's good. And I recommend that. Is it for right now, you need to make some money. And let me ask you this other question. How has it been trying to onboard clients to do the brand strategy stuff? Onboarding clients for the brand strategy stuff. For people who come to me for brand identity is easy for people who are going, I want business cards or I want a website, which seems to be the anchor that everybody, in my perception, our community anchors on websites a lot. The brand strategy does not function for them, because the people I'm running into already have a fundamental business established and they really are looking for a deliverable, a tactical deliverable and flipping that paradigm on them is exceedingly challenging, however, and a brand identity structure. A lot of people are still fundamentally wrestling with a business plan or a structure in their heads and saying, here, let me help you imagine what that looks like is easier. Ok? I see. So I'm starting to get an idea here as how to do this, if the transition from brand identity to bigger, higher level strategic thinking is the way to go, then I suspect that you lead with that. That you lead with this Trojan horse, because there's a lot to get if you're a new business and you're still struggling to figure us out. I'm pretty sure you don't even know what that word means. Brand strategy, business design. I totally agree with you. They're just starting. I'm just starting, right? And so if you put on the lens of I'm a starter, I got a business. I think I have a business and I've been doing some crappy stuff on my own. I need some professional help because I don't feel like this aligns with what it is that I feel about myself, let alone. I'm not even thinking about marketing strategy or anything else. So maybe that's the entry point until you're able to build up enough. Experience and a client base and referrals that then you can do a harder pivot and say exclusively, this is all I do now because I'm tired of just answering all your identity design questions. So but the thing is, I don't mind doing identity. I enjoy doing it. I didn't like honestly when I worked in an ad agency that was my favorite part. And that was before, you know, the wide world of design blew up. So much. Mm-hmm That's why I trying to return to some roots here that I really enjoyed. OK, now is there a firm out there that's doing the kind of work that you would love to do more of? Doesn't matter if the Pacific Northwest, I don't care where they are or there are a couple of companies. You know, I haven't found any they do identity design, they do identity design that I love that I respect that I want to be part of. That's not to say I haven't put in applications all over the place. No, no, I'm sorry. Let me let me reframe. Yeah as an independent business owner, it's kind of nice to know when you're doing positioning who your position yourself against. I'm still off the track that you're going to do this and make this thing work, ok? Before I say, like, apply for a job. So which firms out there do identity design and potentially brand strategy that you love? Um, yeah, so there's one called belief, there's one. I mean, let me type that in. Is it just belief? I think it's Yeah. Let me want to drop in the chat. Let's make this. There's a company called belief, but I don't think that's the one. They do motion graphics. Their belief agency, I just sent it in. OK, thank you. Oh, I sent it to Rachel. Sorry, Rachel. You had a direct message, huh? It happens. And there's states of matter, I believe. Let me look to that again. OK, this is going to be helpful exercise to all of you guys that are watching and listening to this because it's important to know how we stack up against the people that we think we should be positioned against. This is critical in positioning theory, OK, or business strategy. Initially, before I opened my company, I looked up about 30 different local agencies and tried to judge where I would fit in between all of them to see. And the ones I just gave you are the ones that stand out to me because they are a little more esoteric, artsy, creative, playful, but they do more than just brand identity. OK yes, they do, I can see that because they also are not just showing me a bunch of beautiful identity design. And I'm just going to type in identity design agency here and see what comes up. Oh, these guys are so good. Oh my God. Let me look these up. Look this up. Oh, OK, I want you all to look at this because I remember getting one of their business cards from somebody, I'm like, wow, this business card is super, super impressive. Let me just jump in here. Then I base hit into yet, no. Here we go. Check out these folks from San Francisco called character. So it's character. Look how they present their work. So I think this is mostly identity design firm. I don't remember 100 percent, because it's been like a decade over. That should be a challenge if you say, I think, shouldn't it? What do you mean? Well, for example, you said. You know, I should have dozens of examples that make it very clear from the outset that I'm a brand identity firm, and that's not exactly clear on character. OK, well, they say right on their site that they are branding and identity. OK, I only say that I'm not sure because I think I met some of the people there, like 15, 20 years ago, and I've not pulled this up since then, so I don't want to use a 15-year-old memory and say this because I'm literally looking at it right now, just with you guys. But when I went to do a naked search on Google, I typed in design or identity design agency and there were top 10, probably the third one on that list. OK so already they're playing the Google SEO game really well. And you're getting sucked into local search because I didn't get that when I searched the exact same terms from Seattle. OK let me see. Identity design agency, it's probably because it remembers some of my preferences here. So I'm seeing a whole bunch of other ones, too. I see we are Collins. Ideas big. Pentagram are you guys seeing the same thing, ghosts? Media Inc. Oh, that's an ad I'm sorry. Are you guys seeing collins? Chris, do the price point for these character people? It's going to be expensive? I will tell you right now the card looked expensive to me. So it is it really similar if they're offering a much more expensive service to people? Is it similar in what way? What do you mean? What Jeremy's doing right now, so like the way that the risk that his clients are going to take is going to be different if they see work that cost hundreds k or 50k or k3,3 rather than 3k to make? Yes Yes. Let's talk about that. Let me drop this link in for you guys here. So there's the Collins link. All right. Just look at that. So here's how I look at it. There are people who have been in business for a really long time. And through many iterations and formulations and calculations and bringing on a bunch of people to help them form their message, they arrived at where they're at today. So we are calling didn't start out that way on day one. So unless you go on the way back time machine on the internet, which you can do, you can go and see that and you can track their progress. So I want to see where I want to go first. So if I want to do identity design, I want to compete against Collins and Landau and and ghost or whoever else, I'm moving brands, fast brands, pentagram, I'll look at where they're at today and they'll reverse engineer that. But I can do that because I have relative amounts of similar experience, like 20 years, maybe not as focused as what they're doing. And now what you can do is I don't know what that website is. What's that website where you can look at? Every build of a website, Wayback Machine. Oh, it is way back. Sometimes it works out, so you guys go ahead and go Wayback Machine and type in that URL and then you can see a snapshot of everything that they've ever done. So look, I don't want to guess. I don't like guessing, to be honest, because that just means I haven't done enough research. I would like to put my energy into a focus effort. So if Jeremy is saying, look, look, I want to service these small businesses that are trying to figure out where they want to be. They're not looking for a character, Assaf, or we are calling this way out of reach for them. But there is something about the way they present themselves that is appealing to very large corporations. Now you just need to take that as a structure and then swap out the messaging and the images for what feels appropriate for your market. I think it's good to aim a little bit above, but obviously not 10 levels above. OK, so demi, does that answer your question there? Well, yes, just I was sorry. You don't sound very convinced. So my question was, if you had any specific insights on how much these character people watch because. I find nobody shares that information. Yeah perhaps knew them or there was some inside there. I don't even maybe I know Brian Collins. He's probably not going to tell me. I asked him on the show and he's like, oh, it's going to be a lot. Hey, Chris. Yeah, I've got a few observations, please. You know, you're talking about where they were as to where they are now. Yeah, looking at their site, they're really presenting the work. It's beautiful, but they don't. Their positioning is kind of wonky as far as it's tactical, right? We're just a brand identity company, right? Yeah as opposed to talking about a big problem. They're solving, and they can maybe do that because they've got a completely different funnel than the rest of us do, except excluding you, probably. So isn't their approach a little different than, you know, some of the rest of us would take just because we don't have the kind of funnel they have and the kind of reputation network, that kind of thing? Yeah what you're talking about is they just want to sell identity design, right? So what are you talking about? Yeah, well, that and they're just the way they're presenting it, in other words, above the fold, there's no information, it's just work. It's just all work. And you scroll down and you just it just says we do brand identity design or whatever it says. I don't have it in front of me right now, right? And sort of the idea that we have is that we should be talking about solving a big problem, right? Correct expensive problem. And they're not talking about that. There are sort of in a position where they almost don't have to do that. And I'd argue pentagram is probably in the same position. Lindor's in the same position. I see what you're saying. You're you're deducing that companies that don't talk about their philosophy, their approach or what it is they do, they just mostly shows you their work and it's good enough and they don't need to do that. Right and I suspect that if you're in the market for god, I'm looking really white right now. If you're in the market for identity design, I think you're going to want to see that really fast because it's different. It's different than a company that's very sophisticated, is thinking about brand strategy and can talk about it in that way where they understand it and they want it. Now that's not to say that those of you guys that want to sell brand strategy should pull that away from what it is that you're doing. But if you're not getting traction, my only guess is either you hire a copywriter to help you formulate those words or connect with who it is that you're speaking to, in words that they understand. That's one option. And if you have the runway, keep at it, keep working at it. But right now it looks like and I don't know how long Jeremy's been doing this, but it seems like it's been some time and he's not getting traction. I don't know else to tell a guy except for to say just change the strategy. If this isn't working and you've given it a good go at it and you just don't, you're at your wit's end. The only thing I can suggest is try something else. And I've shared stories with you guys before where we thought we should do x, and we try to do that for six months and it didn't work. And I see the money's just burning because I have 20 some odd employees. I'm going to try something else and I keep trying until I find the right fit. And I'm more in love with the results than I am with being right. The result is leads are coming in, people are talking to you for the right kind of thing. And then you can pivot. If you want to. Right now, I'm just looking at like, how can Jeremy get some work in the several thousand range? So if you could do, let's say, two or three projects at 2000s each? He's going to at least get above where he needs to be. So that he can feel sane again and feel whole. So who's looking for that work? What are they looking for? And perhaps we are speaking above them right now, and until we have that credibility and that client base, maybe we just need to get real simple with it. I don't know. I'm not an advocate for saying just show them the work. But if it's working for somebody, it might be worthwhile looking into if the other strategy hasn't been working, Jeremy, you want to say something? Go ahead. No, actually, just to clarify, I open my company a couple of years ago, I was doing I did OK last year on a couple of clients. It's really just been the last six months that have seen OK. And because I reached out to my clients for referrals and it didn't really come from that. And really, it's been the last three months that I've been trying to ride this train and figure things out that have just seen, you know, that flywheel slow down, slow down, slow down, slow down. Yeah what do you attribute that to? I don't know, and that's part of my stagnancy, that's part of that loss, you know that Einstein point, you can't solve the same problems that you created without the tools. Yeah like, I'm trying to get outside that by reaching out to everybody because I've absorbed all this content. I keep reading books. I'm digest them like their candy. And while I end up with new perspectives and new tools to use, it's not diagnosing like honestly talking with Zach yesterday and with everybody I've spoken with. I've spoken with Sean yesterday and team that well checked yesterday, and a lot of it is do just redo your website. And to me, the challenge in that is productive procrastination because I'm going to get it done, sure, and maybe it'll be better towards that, but how long is that going to take me and is that actually making a difference now? So I appreciate You saying, how do we get somebody in right now? Because that's the challenge I'm having. I'm trying to move that move. The lever hit the right fulcrum point so that, you know, just a little bit of effort turns into a lot more leverage to make this thing move. Yeah, frankly, it feels like, yeah, I just got to redo the identity that or at least the website to make it clearer. I think so, and it doesn't have to be redoing the whole website. I think you can do this. You can create a landing page. That really clearly says what you are in one long squirrel. For a specific thing, it's a lot easier to write and present yourself on one single page, so it'll be like think tank identity design, let's just say. And that's the link that you send out to people looking for work. And that's the thing that you run campaigns against or to back link to when you're posting on social media. So don't have to sort their way through the site. I have this theory, and I think it's backed up by best practices and web design. But every time you ask somebody to click or take an action, you have drop off. So don't make me think, just walk me through this. I need to know who you are, what you do and why it helps me. And if you can do that for identity design, for small to medium sized businesses, maybe that's going to get you that quick win. And I think it's a lot less daunting to say, like re-engineer your whole site positioning and all this kind of stuff on a gamble because you can chase down that path too and not get any results and feel like you want to, like jump out of a building. OK I think Paul wants to say something, and Abby, jump on in. I'll go first. Oh, sorry. No, you go fast, Paul. All right. It's just going to say that those people that maybe aren't confident enough to really focus in right at this moment in time. No, that's not the advice we're giving out right now. But you can do a tricks on your site. For example, if you did a brand identity on your site, so your home page just becomes about brand identity or if you were doing strategy, you do strategy in your homepage just becomes about strategy. So if you want to give out a link to Chris, say if Chris comes along and says, oh, someone wants you logo design, you think tank logo design as your home page and they would just concentrate on that, you know, focus on your story about logo design. So you could kind of have your site ready for different potential customers if you still have a really niche down just yet. Yeah so, so, Paul, I think you were then finding that I just said, right? Which is you can try little experiments. So that it's a lot easier for people to figure out who you are on a single page. But just by adding different slashes to your url, right? Yeah saying to say great. Yeah, OK, perfect, Abby. Hey, I'm sorry, Jeremy. Always pretty much where you were last year, and I found that whatever I was doing wasn't kind of working. I was pedaling furiously and everything. And do you know what? Sometimes if you haven't got the work on at the moment, the way that if what really kind of, I think didn't work for me was I didn't have the work, but yet I was panicking and just trying to do like 10 things at once to try and get clients in. So what actually worked was like Chris was just saying, having somewhere that I can actually direct people to, that explains clearly what I do and shows really beautifully presented examples of my work. That was the first thing. And then actually, when you are going out. And if you're making cold calls, I don't know if your network, I don't know if you go and link to and all of that stuff, you can actually direct those people back to somewhere where they will know what you do, be able to contact you about it and see how beautifully made mockups and things like that of what you can actually do and the results you can get for them. Because I don't think there's no point you doing all this work at the front end, desperately trying to get people to go and look at your stuff when they land on a website that is quite confusing and they don't know what they do next, because at that point, all the work you've done at the front end is kind of lost and it strikes me for what everybody said that you are doing all of that front end stuff like going out and trying to get people to see your work and do everything. But I think if you do have something simple that you can then direct those people to that drop off of people because they're confused or they don't understand what it is you are you can do for them will be much, much less. It worked for me anyway because I was exactly, exactly on that situation last year. Hey, Abby, can I ask you for a favor? You drop it in the chat, one of those pages as an example for us. I can do. I'm literally just taking my site down because I'm rebuilding it. And I've only got a landing page at the moment. So yeah, absolutely. One of my pages? Yeah, one of your pages that does exactly what it is because I remember you posting like, Oh my god, it's just like, nothing is coming. Yeah, right? It's like, I'm lost everybody. What the heck is going on? And you crawled yourself out of that hole? You're like climbing out of the Lazarus pit. I it was and it was mainly because I, you know, I didn't. Don't get me wrong, I'm still working on niching down and getting all that right, and that's very much working work. All right, I will do. I'll do that. OK, Thanks. All right back to Matt. Yeah, I'm just wondering about his funnel as far as like the website is great, but it's sort of like field of dreams, right? If you're ceos, not all dialed in and you're not on the first page. How is he attracting people to this website regardless of what's there and how is he getting eyeballs? So I guess what are some recommendations for that? Yeah, well, I think that's good. Let me write this down. OK, I. Marketing funnel here, let me just get some kind of a summary statement as to what we talked about so far here. OK, so where I began with this is, look, Jeremy, actually very many people in the group and and we're just a small sample of what exists outside in the real world there is that we don't know how to get started. We been trying things and whatever. And things are working or they're not working, whatever. We're down to this part where why isn't anything working? We're frustrated. We need a quick win. We don't need long term long tail strategies because we just can't frankly afford it right now. That's the bottom line. We can't afford to play the long game. OK, so now we need to get a quick win and we need to identify like one single service that a lot of people need because it improves your odds of getting work. Greater demand is going to work. So Jeremy has identified Danny design. I love it. I used to do it. I still love it, and I'm quite happy doing it. So then there's a very direct and real thing here where. Somebody has a lead like me, and I want to give it to somebody else in this group. And instantly, what's going to happen? I already know this because this happened before I asked you guys for your links and what you send me is very broad. It's broad for a lot of different reasons, sometimes it's broad because you don't know how to focus on a niche. It's broad because what, what, what you want to do is broad and that's fine. So that's done on purpose with intent. But then you got to realize every time afford these links out to people, they're going to make their own decisions and they're going to say, look, that looks close as to what it is I want and this is how human behavior is going to work, right? You run towards what's familiar. And we're repelled by what's different. We're we're a little afraid and a little skeptical. So even if I have a live job for 5,000 to 2000 I can solve a very temporary problem. The odds of him edging everyone else out are reduced because the focus isn't there. That's just the bottom line. So each and every single person there, if you only existed for a few of the things that I threw at this group and I see them happening in greater frequency over time, so this is going to be a very real benefit and a problem for some of you. The benefit is I could be your lead source. The problem is you're competing against other people in this group, and the client is ultimately going to decide because I have no other responsibility stepped forward to say here are the five or six people that I think sound what it is that you need. So now let's get into the marketing funnel, so does everybody clear on that part before we move on and talk about the marketing funnel because I'm trying to be mindful of my time here. OK, everybody, silence now. OK now, Jeremy, I'm going to give you the last word on this. Is there anything else that you can see about this? Because this is a very real thing. No, I really appreciate the time, and I'm grateful to everybody's help and advice sincerely. Just to be perfectly clear. I'm not freaking out for some reason. I saw that on your post. Yeah, look, I'm not. I actually feel like someone my old creative director once told me, you know, when you get to these points of freaking out, just go. It's part of my creative process. It's part of the way the brain functions, and you just have to wait for that gestalt of aha. And then you have it. So that's kind of where I am is I'm just being patient and figuring out what, what, what I'm missing. That's a great attitude. I love that. And sometimes you do just have to stay the course because that next client is around the corner. But that doesn't mean you. It's possible to prepare plan B or C for you, right? While you're staying the course, it's good you left out. Everybody is cool, so go do that. OK, let's talk about the marketing funnel. OK, Matt, you brought this up. Like, how is he driving traffic to his site? And this is where we would dive deep into all the different pieces of content that you're producing and where you're producing and where you're getting traction. Now I've recently seen this happen on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is what Facebook used to be before Facebook just wanted to make money on us all. LinkedIn is a great platform for sharing content organically. I post things on LinkedIn, I post things on Facebook. It gets seen by a lot more people on LinkedIn than it is on Facebook, unless it's on my personal feed. If I'm comparing apples to apples, I'm like, wow, this is pretty incredible that engagement and impressions and the views, it's all happening organically. And they have to do that because they're competing against and they're coming from behind against other, more established platforms, and they're going to do that for a while. Until their platform becomes really mature and guess what, you're going to be paying to boost all your posts again. So I recommend and I've seen this guy and I forget his name right now, where he likes to post curated content from other people. And it gets tens of thousands of impressions, and you can see that sometimes they have thousands of comments. It's crazy. Then ask him, hey, why do you do this? First of all, I love what you do. Why do you do this? He says. I enjoy doing this. I would be doing this anyways. And actually, I get leads out of this. So each and every single person take a look at what you're doing in your content funnel and think about how you're actually building a name for yourself and saying, this is what I do and this is how it can help you and you're very specific with your messaging and you're delivering a ton of value. Who's doing that? Give me an example and tell me how it's working for you. Specifically curating other people's content or who's just knowing who's doing well on the content game, being consistent, posting, giving a lot of value, getting really high engagement, adding a ton of followers, just starting at that set of numbers yet, but it's getting there, hopefully. OK, well, maybe after today you'll see some numbers improve. And we're not friends on LinkedIn. I couldn't tag you, man, I can't even find you on LinkedIn. Yes, so, Chris. OK go ahead, Melvin. Yeah, so Chris, I just I just want to say this. I mentioned this in the post that in 2018, one of the things that I did was I started creating videos on LinkedIn, specifically just videos on LinkedIn. So in the whole 2018 you know, seriously, leveraging that organic reach has allowed me to work with big brands that I otherwise have no access to. So the short answer to that is that, you know, I think to be very clear in terms of the kind of clients that you want to reach, be very clear in terms of what are some of the pain points that you have. And then just create content. And I chose video because, you know, LinkedIn was late in the video game. And so when video was made accessible to me, I decided to leverage that and it took off like really, really well, because in the whole 2018 I made a total of 184 videos. That's part of it. Yeah, and it's gotten me like half a million views and and I've been invited to speak. I invited to train. You know, I have been, you know, like this year, I was asked to speak at an insurance conference on using videos. And one of the thing that I found on LinkedIn was that vis a vis to YouTube, because people are asking me, like, why would you want to create videos on linkedin? Why not do it on youtube? And so my answer to that I didn't have the bandwidth to create something that it's really polished because you need to understand that when people are on YouTube, they are prepared to watch a long form content. But when people are on LinkedIn, they are scrolling through their feed, you know, possibly on their mobile phone. And so they don't really care about the quality of the visual. But they are definitely, definitely concerned about the quality of the content. So some of the things that I've experimented with is like in the first five seconds, you really want to say, you know, talk about the pain point. You definitely want your videos to be captioned because of the whole UI and UX of LinkedIn is really, really bad. So like on android, you have to click three times before you could listen to the audio. So so if you go and look at my videos, all my videos are captioned. I go into captions into the video. And the reason is because, you know, we make a joke out of it that these days, people videos and listen to books. So, so so I think the game like, I mean, like, I left a comment in two days, two days cause post that I think we should plan some kind of a mess penetration into LinkedIn, whereby, you know, a few of us who really have got a content game up should just enter into LinkedIn, and we should just create that whole community and to create that, that community and to create a buzz on LinkedIn and kind of use that as a way to get to get, you know, clients. So someone someone I on this group, I happen to know her before I knew her on this group, I knew her on LinkedIn. And we've been watching each other grow on LinkedIn as well. So I think that's definitely something that we want to consider. Yeah OK. Now, while Evelyn was talking, I looked him up because we are connected on LinkedIn and he's 100% exactly what he's talking about, because you click on his post, you see his activity, click on his post. They are short videos under five minutes long, and they have titles like how to put out more content. How do I find better clients an overnight success 14 years in the making? Clients who will pay you to think it's been two weeks being the magic wand to solve all your problems, et cetera, et cetera. And they're very simple. There's a consistent title card. What kind of content creator are you? So and he's doing all the things that you're supposed to be doing in terms of posting video for social platforms like Facebook and LinkedIn. You have to burn in the titles because people are scrolling. And I laughed when he said the LinkedIn interface sucks dog. And it does, and it still does. And it's very difficult to move around and eventually they'll figure it out. But it's tricky to post things. And LinkedIn. OK, so you guys. And he was early in on a platform where and I still I think you can still be early hint right now, believe it or not, on LinkedIn, it's just because it's an overlooked player. OK, so I thank you very much for sharing that, Melvin, in terms of what's worked for you and what it's led in terms of opportunities and connecting you to brands and businesses way bigger than you're punching above your weight class, so to speak. OK, anybody else to have a tip on what they're doing that's working really well and to be specific? But let's do that in a shorter period of time because I'm running out of time. Super quickly, Yes. Not just the video game is super awesome, but I can regress it just a little bit. I blog super consistently like I blog 3 to five times a week. I post it to LinkedIn. I averaged between 712 100 views a day on blog posts I put on LinkedIn. I do the same thing that he talked about. I lead with a graphic. I often put text in the graphic. I ask compelling questions that I've researched first. And I can tell you that this year, since I made this a habit, we have signed to six figure clients who discovered us because of my LinkedIn blog post. perfect. OK, so another person who's been fairly consistent with posting and creating content, giving value to people is getting high engagement, so it's working for Bob too. So you don't have to produce a video because that's daunting for a lot of people. And if you look at Melvin's video, it's like one camera. I think it's one take. It's really designed so that he can get content out and express his ideas. And so Bob is writing, because maybe that's his Forte, and that's what he's good at, and the barrier to entry is much lower. And I'm finding the same thing, too when I'm posting on Twitter. I've made a concerted effort this year, and actually, I shouldn't even say this year, the last two months to see what I can do to grow my following on Twitter. It seems like I got the YouTube thing kind of figured out and Instagram. OK, now I'm working on Twitter, I'm trying to figure out what each platform needs for me. And you have to run a lot of experiments. You have to be willing to try some silly things and watch it fail and make adjustments and try new things until you figure out what works for you and your style. OK, somebody else, please anybody else, maybe on a different platform. I've got something that's a little bit different because I specialize in non-profits. A lot of nonprofit marketing is about face to face and building community and building your base. So what I've been really successful in Facebook is actually becoming an admin for just a group of people that are United by one community and then becoming an admin. I ran an event which got massive engagement, and I'm getting a lot of feedback, so is getting known and getting recognized by a lot of people in one community. So that these real connections are things that I can leverage from my clients into marketing to one specific group. So it's a little bit different when it's around people, but I like that too. So different strategies here to be an admin to a group with shared beliefs, ideas, goals, whatever it is, that makes sense. That's fantastic. OK, who else? Anybody else? Now I want to bring the other Rachel online. Where are you, rachel? I think I saw you earlier. Rachel, she had to go. She had to go, dang it, because her article is getting picked up and it's like, encourage her to write and she's like, I don't want to write. And then she writes, and it just blows up. It doesn't work like that in the real world, but it works like that for Rachel. So I just learn it. I should have called her earlier. Dan, you're nodding your head. Have you spoken to Rachel about this? What's going on with her? I've just seen and we have talked and I know that she got a lot of traction on this and she was she was sharing some when she was like some guy said that he would read a book if I wrote it and it was just such an encouraging. And it was just really one article and it really did give her. You know, just the boost I think she needed, and I yeah, and I just affirmation she's got a lot of really good points and good things to share, and I just think we all do. You just have to have to get out of your way sometimes. And darn it. Isn't that the truth? Well, the one thing when I've talked to some people, this one guy I was talking to, he was like going and LinkedIn and going and all these groups and telling him what he could do, blah blah blah. And I'm like, wait. And he said one of his best traits was listening. And I'm like, but you're going into the room and like, hey, hey, it's me, it's me, it's me. And I'm like, why don't you listen and then just respond and then direct message people and start those conversations and Melinda over in the chat, she was saying, you know, when I was, it was really hard and things were my runway was really, really short. I was trying to just talk to people. And it was just conversations that I would people passing. So it means that you can't if you're going to be in front of your computer, then you need to be doing some things in social where it's asking, like you said, ask compelling questions and start listening and seeing where people are hurting. And then respond back instead of trying to be on stage. Or, you know, just like Melman was saying, solve somebody's problems, you know, think about their pain point. It's not about you and what you can do. It's like, hey, here's this quick thing that I think will help, you know. Mm-hmm OK, I want to say a couple of things, but I want to queue up Roxy and then Emmanuel to speak. You guys know that I read a lot of comments, even though sometimes I don't respond to all of them. But I try. I try. And some people have accused me of the mastering the one word answer. And yes, it's because of volume. It's purely because of volume. You guys and I have to get really efficient by how to answer questions. Sometimes you get a little snarky. That's OK. But I want to just tell you this thing here. Somebody in this group I can't remember had asked this question. question was how much do you guys charge for rush fees? And then I wrote an answer and I'm like, let me see if I can take that answer and put it on Twitter. And I do so. So this thing now has 533 likes, 136 retweets and 15 comments to it. This same little comment. So I think this might be valuable to somebody. Let me try it somewhere else. And then after it goes for some time, I copy the same thing I paste in a LinkedIn because what I want to use Twitter for is to try lots of different things. It's very ephemeral on Twitter. It hits it. Doesn't you move on? Nobody really cares. And then I take my own best, most engaged piece of content and expand on that elsewhere. At some point, I might want to write like a short form blog post on it because I'm able to test ideas that people care about. OK, roxie, you're up. Hi Yes. So for me, it's been so hard to get clients, even though the position is very strong and well, last week I came out well. I like long story short, we are creating a platform for big caterers and big restaurants that offer cater catering for all vegan. And my partner, he's a web developer. So he can create all the search database. So it's not like a listing of vegan restaurants, but it's like they can. They are able to sell their services a lot better. And I see all of these very big businesses that are not really fund. And I started reaching out and everybody is super welcoming and I'm getting invited to meet. And then they are like, oh, but what do you do? And so we are like going to be giving this to the community and it's kind of a funnel in a way. Mm-hmm OK it's a starting I don't have much information on it that works. You're moving forward. I like that. Yeah let's go to Manuel. OK so let me do this, Emmanuel go, hey. One last thing. So one of the things we've been doing before I even logged on to your platform. We were trying to figure out what's Chris magic? We we really understand. We're like a whole bunch of us in our office and we were like, OK, what's going on? That's new, and that's refreshing. And what we put our finger on? You kind of gave it away a little bit in your what's my wife? Little thing. But your idea is that you stand there and you figure out, how can I help you? What's really nice about the height? How can I help you position? What's awesome about it is that it's live and I find that I'm old school, so I build community. And I found I really like what she said a few minutes ago about building community working within a community. I find this live face to face community building. How can I help? Stuff is so powerful. It's so powerful, and I just wanted to just as a side to it or as a connection to it. Books about questions, you know, questions that enable you to help. Is there any reference that you have with respect to this? But my two points were really community building. And how do you help? Because I find that when you serve, people see you not as a taker and they and they have a tendency of wanting to connect with you and you can really explore community this way. Yeah OK, I'm going to try and wrap up the call. I'm sorry, everybody. I know you're used to these two hour or two hour plus marathons for me, but I'm trying. I'm going see if this can work because I'm going to do another call tonight at 9:00 PM and so I do want to wrap with this because Emanuel had asked this question and I don't know why. I don't know why, but I'm on a tear recently. I'm just gobbling up books. All of a sudden, I'm like, I didn't even know this about myself. And it's wonderful because I feel like I had to figure things out in the field and through experience and use intuition and some coaching from my business coach. And there are theories that are formed and I've been doing it. I've been teaching it. But then when I read these books and they've done the research and their experience lines up with my experience, but some of it is different and some of it's the same. Feels freaking cool, I got to tell you guys, I really do. So some resources. The book Socratic selling is a very interesting eye opening, although a little dated. I think it's wonderful Socratic selling the idea of full value listening that whatever the other person says really matters. And so you have to learn to be quiet and listen. And the more books. I read, the more it tells you to talk less and listen more. And what we're doing on social media is we're talking more and listening less. And the premise is we're living in a time that we're all over communicated, and our capacity to remember things is about seven things. And that's it. So I'm starting to see the overlap between branding, positioning, marketing strategy, Socratic selling. It's all the same. It is all the same, there's too much stuff that's out there. And we're being bombarded. So things that are different, people who are listening, people who we feel like we have a real connection to that we trust and are bonding with. That's the powerful stuff. You have to figure that stuff out. So Socratic selling has been really good. I have recommended also the one page marketing plan by Allen Dib, and I'm about 3/4 of the way through never split the difference, which I know Melinda's been on my back about reading, and I'm finally, I'm like reading through it, and I think everything that could be said in a book can be summed up in a few things. So I'm going to bring that home for you guys. Like, right now, I'm going to try. I'm going to try. OK so why is asking questions. So powerful? Know if you watch me on YouTube giving advice and even coaching, you're like, dude, why won't this guy ever answer a question? He's so slippery that fricking slippery Asian dude, why don't we just answer it? And there's a real reason because the person is coming to me with a problem. What I need to do is help them think. This is where the real value comes in, because thinking is difficult. Having clarity of your own thoughts is difficult and making decisions is difficult. So the person who helps the other person think and make decisions is going to be seen by them as really valuable. Now, some people on the internet can't appreciate that and don't really care if they do because like, just give them advice. But here's the problem when you give people advice, what do they say? They say, you're right. You're right, you're right. And what happens? Nothing changes. Because they feel like you're just talking about them. And sometimes for expediency when I'm coaching people, especially if I'm like on a rapid fire thing, all I'm going to do is give advice. But I realize that seldomly triggers real change within the person. What they need to say is. That's right. In that you understand me. And there's a big difference between your right, and that's right. When you say you're right, just think back in a moment in time when you've been in a relationship where somebody's been talking to you nonstop, blah blah blah blah in your face. What do you do to get rid of them? You say, you're right. You're right, you're right enough. You're right. What we don't realize is they're sending us a signal that they don't want to hear from us anymore. So we go on thinking that you're right, yes, they totally understand, they agree it's done. So what you do is when you ask questions, you're helping them to excavate their own thinking. Now here's a couple of other powerful things that all the books touch upon, and we've heard people say this before, but now I'm reading all the case studies and the scientific research and the data. It's pretty profound. The statement is this the statement is people buy based on emotions and they use logic to justify it. People buy on emotions. They use logic to justify it. We'd like to think we're rational, logical human beings that we made the rational choice, but suddenly, do we ever make the rational choice? We base in our gut the limbic brain, ok? And Chris Voss cites this in a scientific study that a bunch of researchers had patients, that their brain was damaged, that the limbic part, the emotional part of their brain wasn't functional. And so when they were asked to make a decision, they can logically tell you all the parts and pieces that go into the decision. But for the life of them, they could not make a decision. could not decide. So those of you guys that really want to gain traction with people in conversation, in coaching, in live facilitation. The power of the question is super important. And being able to surface the things that are below the logic is really where you're going to find things out. Now I started thinking about this. When we do discovery, there's a high probability that many of the participants are going to come up and hug me afterwards, and it's an emotional response to something that I felt was so logical. I didn't realize what I was doing was I was communicating to them what they say matters. This is the full value listen that each person has a voice to understand each of their needs. And the better that I'm able to do that, the more they love it, the more they feel like it's worth a lot of money. So let me give you guys a quick. Quick shortcut piece of information here. Now, if you adopt the reporter mentality, you ask who, how, what, when, where, why questions? According to vos, the two safest questions to start with. Or what and how? What and how? What do you mean by this? How do you suppose I can do that? He says that when and the where questions are not high value because they can be easily answered where. Meet me at Santa Cruz, when tomorrow. So what and the how? Questions force the other person to think and reflect back. OK the why question, which Simon Sinek says start with why, and it's an important question, depending on how it's delivered and your tone can sound accusatory. It could put the other person in the defensive, so be careful how you use that. I love why questions. They work really well for me, but maybe what I'm not realizing is my tone might be a little different than some of you. OK, so I'm going to give you an example of a how question. But before I do that, I want to talk to you a little bit about your tone of voice. Now there's I think, according to Chris, and I just read this on the airplane ride to Poland, so give me a little slack here in case I don't get this right for you devotees of Chris Voss, that there are three voices that he says are effective. The first voice is what he calls the late night FM DJ voice. It's slow. It's low. It's very deliberate. It calms the other person down. The other voice, I think, is his. Is this smiling voice where it's happy, it's optimistic. And he says to literally smile when you talk, it changes the way that you talk. And the last one is the confrontational voice, I think, which is like, we don't want to go there. So many of you guys, you might see this happen on a coaching call when somebody is going bananas on me and all I do is like. So why do you feel that way? Tell me more. And then people think it's like some sorcery ninja tricks or people going really easy on me and what they don't realize because they're looking at it from a logical outside the other person, they're mirroring responses, slowing down to match mine. So tip one tip to walk away with today is when you're talking to clients, when you're doing facilitation to practice your FM, DJ voice, just your radio voice, super slow understanding, calm. Maybe it's also the psychiatrist voice they're going to bring you back to level, ok? Now, he was sharing an example of how two drug dealers, one drug dealer, kidnapped the other drug dealer's girlfriend and to their surprise, the drug dealer went to the police and wanted help to get the girlfriend back. And so I think there was an issue of ransom. And they had been training prior to that to ask questions for proof of life, to make sure that the hostage is still alive. And they would ask questions like the kinds that you would have to answer for security protocol, like what's your mother's maiden name or what's the name of your first pet? Or or who? What was the name of your first grade teacher or something like that? And he said they've been trained for a really long time to ask these proof of life questions. But there were low value, because it was very easy for the kidnapper to walk in there and say, hey, what's your mother's maiden name and come back and you got no new information, but what's worse is in this law of reciprocity. When you ask a question like that and they answer now, they expect to get something back. So, yes, you did confirm that the other person's alive. You can't ascertain the state in which they're in. Their mental state, their physical state, you just got a piece of information and now you have to reciprocate, so. What was interesting about this kidnapping case with these two drug dealers was the guy was sitting in the back of. Of of the car, and before Chris could coach him, the drug dealer called him and said, hey, what's the where's the money? And so the drug dealer says back to him, Yo, homie, how am I supposed to give you money if I don't know if she's alive or not? And the other guy paused for some time. And it forced him to think of a solution. So he gets the girl on the other line and they talk for a little bit, and that's it. So says the interesting thing about what he witnessed there is in this guy who's really untrained and not refined. He just spoke like a normal person. He's like, how am I supposed? How am I going to pay you if I don't know if she's alive? And that put the burden on the other person to solve the problem. And he was like, wow, this really changed his mindset on the power of the question. Because he asked that question, the other person gave him an answer and probably gave him a lot more than he could have figured out on his own, but also. He didn't owe him anything. So he didn't have to reciprocate anything. So the question is like what and how, even if they're poorly formed for you, will work really well. OK, I will be sharing more between all the books I've been reading, like my head's going to explode, but I've learned so many things. I've been documenting exactly the way I told you guys put on 3 by 5 cards. I just did this marathon two day. 18 hour workshop and the process has been working really well for me. Read a book, take some notes, share and teach as fast as you can. OK, it's going to connect dots for you in your mind, and I can't wait to have this debate with Alec coming soon.

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