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Pro Member Breakthroughs - What has worked for you

#
58
Chris Do
Published
May 5, 2017

Chris Do has an open agenda call with the pro group members about what has worked for them and what has clicked on their road to success.

Read Transcript
Glad to see all of you guys. And today I want to set the intention for our call today, it's about breakthroughs. What I've realized is that when you see one of your own succeed, it makes it more tangible. I think I personally don't understand it, but I guess some people see what I'm saying and my persona and how I do it as unrelatable. It's out of reach for what they're doing because they're a small firm or they're solopreneur. And when they see another solopreneur, somebody who has less experience and has a smaller portfolio or whatever, be able to succeed. It gives them courage. So that's what I want to talk about today. So I want to open it up to anybody that has been able to sell strategy as a separate line item apart from anything else not baked in, not rolled in separately to share some of your experiences. And I'm going to frame it with what has been your breakthrough moment. What has clicked internally or externally for you to give you the confidence to go out there and get it? So I want to give you a few minutes to think about it and then to share our very openly, and we're going to have a discussion about it. So I think what we'll do is we'll have a couple of people share and then we'll just have a roundtable discussion. Anybody can say anything. Ok? and if we have time, I'd like to talk about what's making you stuck and possibly segmenting the pro group because there's a lot of new faces, a lot of new questions that I don't want to force everybody to kind of relive. Having said that, I'm going to open it up. Somebody has some background noise going on. I don't know who that is. It's almost sounds like a cricket chirping or I know what it is scrolling with a mouse wheel, right? Aggressively I know it's not Eric because his mic is me to know. OK, now who wants to go first? It's going to be that kind of call, isn't it, who wants to go first and nobody wants to go. I could say something. OK, go ahead. Go sure. OK, so Carrie, go first and then Zach. OK, let's do it, Carrie. You have a couple of minutes far away. Keep it short and tight. Yeah so my breakthrough to getting to the first 5K strategy only was not Carrie. I know that sounds kind of weird, but not caring if I close the deal because I would, I think it changes the energy when you go in maybe the words that you say or they can tell that you're desperate. So the past, what has it been now, three weeks or so? I have been doing the try to kill it 3 times just to try to kill the deal and just not go at it as AI need I need this money in a lack aspect, right? Like a lack. Yeah, there you go. Scarcity mindset. And so for me, it was just I went for it. That that was all there was for. I mean, it wasn't any different clients. It wasn't any different marketing. It wasn't anything different. It was still a referral client. And I just approached my mindset differently. That's kind of nutshell for me. OK, so I talked to Carrie semi-regularly. I call it all hours of the night asking some questions and getting feedback. But we also kind of exchange ideas. This idea of killing the job 3 times Carrie's had with their being since the beginning, because I don't know when our first call was together, but it's got to be at least a year or two and I'm telling you to do it. And there was that one practice session I had you do, and it's a story I tell when I'm on the road. And, you know, when I tell my Carrie story, it's that you found a client that you don't want. And I asked you to do is try to help them to the best of your ability. And then you had very glowing reviews after that call about how you felt in control, respected, appreciated and valued more so than ever. And you've actually you helped that person improve their business and their life in such a way that they reported back to you and told you. So within 24 hours of me telling you to do something, you actually just did it. And I told you, remember your mindset? Yep, and then you fell off the wagon. You started drinking again. I started drinking again. Yeah, I think, you know, we make excuses for ourselves. Life happens. Bills come in, finances come in. And you get into this mindset of when is the next project going to come? I need to get this. I need to close it. But I have January and February have been. Crazy bananas by just switching my mindset. And that's all I've done differently is change my quality of products. Not any different. I mean, nothing's different, do it? Nothing is different, but my mindset. So why did you decide two years after me telling you to do it for you to finally do it? Because you challenged me, man? How did I challenge you? and well, I guess if we want to be totally transparent, Yes. Yeah, totally transmitter parent, I've been in the program for a really long time like I'm old and watching the newer people start Lapping me. That was kind of like, oh, I've got to do this, you know, there's nothing. I know this stuff. I backwards and forwards. I practice it. I got to get out of my own way. So, OK, so it sounds to me like some of us are motivated by what we can achieve, and some of us are motivated by people pushing us from behind. Right? competition from behind. Not ahead. Yeah, it's not a bad thing. In my personal opinion. I think we all can lift each other up, you know, to kind of move us forward. Well, yes, I am somewhat pragmatic about this kind of stuff. I would rather you chase winners than to get pushed up by people coming up after you and leaving you in the dust, right? Yeah well, so I've worked, so I got to get into your mindset a little bit in that one exercise I had you do for someone that you didn't care about, you felt fantastic. You even shared it with me in such enthusiastic ways. and then you let yourself slip back to other old you. Yep, and it's not until these new people coming into the group pushing you in a way not on purpose, but they're pushing you and then you're like, screw it, I'm now going to do what I know I should have done all along. Is there anything else that was able to push you over the edge, getting over? It's a lot of mindset, but action, just doing it perfect is not done. I would ruminate on stuff over and over and over again, trying to get things perfect. And now it goes out and it just it is what it is. You know, it's ship. It is better than not done at all. So that's changed too. I don't sit there and kind of over complicate the situation and overthink things as much. OK, I'm going to share one more thing about you and if you want to respond. Otherwise, I want somebody else to come in. So whoever's going to be on deck next, I think it's Zach. And so he'll come on next. OK, but here's what I want to share with you guys. Kerry's weakness in. Let me put you on mute there, Jason. Kerry's recent win. Followed a string of losses that. There was some sadness and depression because she's like, Chris, I don't know what's going on. I put this work in and I thought I was going to get the gig and I didn't, and it's so disappointing. I thought I did everything right. And that prompted me to ask her a couple of things, and I asked her, why are you losing it? Well, there's a new person in my community who is undercutting us by 90% She's charging 10% of what I charge. How do I compete against that? What do I do? And your instinct is OK. I have to lower my prices. And I said, is this person constantly competing against you? And she's like, Yes. So if you know this, why haven't you addressed it? I don't know. And I don't know why. So this was then now us kind of having a dialogue about if you have competition, that's going to be 10% of your cost. If you don't address it, you are in essence going to lose the job by your own inaction or by design intention or otherwise. So here's what I advise Kerry to do, and you guys definitely want to listen to this part. OK, Yeah. Listen to this, guys. It was like it was a shift in thinking big time. So I told Kerry, the next time somebody calls you ring ring, new business, I want you to ask them this question. How many people have you spoken to prior talking to me? No wedding. Oh, OK, well, so I'm your first call. Well, I'm glad you called. But here's the thing I want to save you a lot of time. Most likely, I'm going to be the most expensive person you're going to talk to. I'll explain why later. But here's what I think. I think you owe it to yourself to talk to a bunch of people and then call me last. Call me last once you know what each person has to offer. And I'm going to explain to you why then you're going to want to go with the most expensive option because I do things that these other people do not do. Now they'll use certain kind of language. What I'd ask you to do is push them to be more specific. And then after which you can come back and we'll talk and we can schedule the call now or later. Kerry is like, oh, OK, they're going to call me, he'll call me back. Really? Yeah. OK, so like a good soldier at this point? Kerry does it, the very next client, and then she reports back to me right away. She said it. Was really scary. I don't know, man. And I'm paraphrasing for the sake of time here. And then a couple of days later, she said they called back and the way she texted me this message. It sounded like she was surprised. And it said it was so you're surprised, like you have no trust in faith and with the things I tell you to do. Then she backpedaled a little bit and try to like, show me your way out of it. I didn't buy any of it. Basically low, low faith there. But she did do it still, and they did call her back. And then she then started to articulate the differences between what she did versus what somebody else did. And now they knew. And she addressed it head on. And it sounds counterintuitive that she's telling a prospect to go away. Actually, she's so bold to say go away and call me last. Because we know a lot of times clients won't even call you, let alone call you last. It's shifted the power dynamic from one that is needy to one that was in control and in charge. All right, Yep. And for statistics wise, I've done eight of those calls where I have told them to call me last and I have closed five of them. Wow, look, Zach gives you the silent tennis clap there is perfect, Yeah. It is scary and it's counterintuitive, but it works. It works well. It's counterintuitive to you. It's totally intuitive. Right, right. Because this is how you're supposed to do it. Now, when you close over 50 percent, if you close it 50 percent, you are a rock star. If you were in baseball, that it's called batting 500 I think, right, like 1,000 is perfect. And I've only had one to not call me back. Like to get on a call like and to call back. I want that client did you a favor by not calling me back, sucking up your time, setting up false hope and expectation? Yeah, I'll just try it. It's kind of scary at first to do the very first one, and I actually wrote down a script for it that when Chris and I talked so I wouldn't back out, you know, and it I mean, it worked. It worked really well. So that's what I know that in the space that I'm competing in, that I have those people that are massively undercutting me and I know who these people are going to go to and you guys probably have the same. Everybody has, yeah, everybody. I don't want to have somebody undercutting you is you're the guy or gal undercutting everybody else? MHM that's the only way. And we don't want you to do that in this group, obviously. Now, when I tell you guys a couple of things as to why this works, there's such thing as called the principle of scarcity and the principle of social proof. In Dr. Houdini's book. Now, let's imagine a situation right now. You you're hungry. It's dinnertime, and you and your best friend or whoever is, you're looking for a place to eat in your new in town and there's you're in the middle of the street and to your left is one cafe and restaurant. And you're right, there's one cafe and restaurant. The one on the left has a line out the door. It's hustling and bustling with energy. The one on the right has an older couple sitting in the store somewhere near the back or the restaurant. Without knowing anything about either restaurant, which one are you more inclined to go to? Would you ever try the one with just two people in it? Or will you be like, oh, what, what's that line all about? This must be good. Everybody knows something that I don't. Anybody here, would you choose the one that nobody goes to? OK, so this is social proof, this is why also some restaurants, while there are plenty of tables, do not seat everybody. They want a line to form at the door because they also realize the same psychological effect that a person that is in demand by other people is some somebody you want to go to. So how do you create this illusion of demand? Social proof when you're on the phone because there is no line, you have to act as if there's a line you don't want to be bothered by them. So what Kerry did in this one instance by telling them, go away. Go talk to other people. It's like, you know, I already have the best restaurant and I don't want to deal with your attitude. So why don't you go eat a couple of places and come back when you realize that they already serve you mediocre food to think to when they go away and they talk to your underpriced competitor, they're going to be more vigilant by asking them certain kinds of questions. Because now you've planted the seed in their brain that these people are less than you. Do you understand that? It's like saying, is the food too salty and then all of a sudden you think it's already too salty before you even try it? And that's what's happening now. Let's take it one step further and just use the cafe restaurant metaphor a little bit or the analogy here. Let's just say there is number line at the door and you walk up and they say, do you have a reservation where three months booked solid? That's the next level now. Now you can't even get in, even if you waited in line. You have to make an appointment. So these are all psychological, psychological things that you guys can do. But I think the key lesson here it was a couple. One is if there's an elephant in the room, you must address it. If if you know, you're the smallest company, if you know you're going to be the most expensive company, if you have the least experience, you have to address it on the call in the first meeting prior to you even thinking you have a shot because there's no point in you building a proposal or an estimate because you're not going to get it anyways. Period lesson number two, which I think is the more important lesson is why the hell are you guys waiting so long to do the things I tell you to do, which is the bigger issue altogether, because it's a sad day for me that less than 10% of this group is in the 5,000 strategy club. OK, you guys don't need any other props. You don't need anything else to hold you up. Because you already have all the tools that you need already carries the exact same person, same exact client, same exact everything. The only thing that changed was the words that came out of her mouth and sometimes even the words that you say you don't believe. But as long as you say it, eventually you will believe the words that you say now carry anything else. You want to add to this, and I'm going to open up to some questions and we're moving on to Zach. I was going to say to the other 10, I changed. I was trying to think of everything that I changed. Instead of I do web. So most people come to the site and want to contact me and query, I've changed that now to an application. So it's almost like an interview to work with me instead of me wanting to get the work. That was another thing that I did. Can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you, just give me the silent treatment. You've got to be comfortable silence. Oh shit, I well, I didn't know if I could. You were making like face, so I wasn't sure if you could hear me. OK, let's open up any questions around the conversation that Carrie and I just had. If you want more nuance or more information or questions. Let's talk about it now so we can move. Move to the next issue. Anybody Zach has a jump off. OK he just left. Bye, Zach. Sorry, we missed you. Took up all your time. Jason, the question. Wait, hold on, who's talking? I can't see. This is victor, Victor. Go ahead. Ask your question. So Kerry, what's the response that you get from the clients once you tell them to go and talk to other people before coming to you? What's the usually? I think that is a common response that you get. Can you share that with us? Yeah so far it's been positive. I haven't had really any pushback whatsoever. It's been. OK you know, you know, I think a couple like kind of surprised, but yeah, no, it's been real positive. It hasn't been. I thought it was going to be like, let's just talk about it now and we can talk later and a lot of pushback. And it hasn't been. Thank you. all right. I have a question follow up as well. What were you afraid that was going to happen? That never happened. Um, I was afraid that I would lose all these inquiries. That was already losing money to begin with. Right, but that was still the fear that I was afraid of getting the exact same results you were getting from any changes. Pretty clear. Yes, pretty much. OK, anything else? no, I mean, that was the fear that was the I can't believe I'm at first, I'm like, I'm turning people away and this is kind of like lost. It felt like lost opportunity at first. OK, but yeah, that's it. You guys know Stephen Covey's quote, right? 7 Habits of Highly Successful People. If you keep doing what you're doing, you're going to keep getting what you're getting. That's the clear thing that I can say. You want different results, but you do the same thing. You want to close jobs, you want to sell strategy, you want to stop losing. Ask yourself why you're so married to a process that is not working. And I understand it's the one you're familiar with, but if you'd like to taste it, defeat the taste of not achieving your goals, keep doing it. You also have me double my rates. Well, we can get into that as well. I'm just saying, all right. All right. Jason Knight from Australia. Yo Yo, did you know I might have missed the first little piece? But did you know why you were missing out originally and who your competitors were? Good question. I'm sorry, I was checking on kids and that. I'll tell you what. OK, Jason. My question was, you know why you were missing out on the gigs? First of all, and you know who your competitors were? I know who my competitors are. Yes and I think I was missing out because I was coming at the inquiries as line items and comparing very deliverable instead of coming at it as a strategy. The results that they will get when talking to them. The second time it was more it was very tactical in the beginning. So when they're comparing me to someone that is 90% lower than me, that is talking very line item deliverable, then it's hard to compare. So it's just kind of changing, changing the dialogue. So it's a little bit more on the results that you give them and the goals, their goals. Yeah so less, you know, than our website UX and more strategy results where you're heading. Yeah, that's not the past conversations that I've been having. The actual what we do is not really coming up that much like a website and logo, or it is more focused on their goals, their problems and the results that they can get. Scott, I do want to say something real quick on this thing here. I don't know if you guys know this, but a lot of people in our industry use the same language that we talk about within this. Good point about that one. And just because they use the same language, it muddies the water. A lot of people don't actually do branding but say they do branding. So when you say, oh, I'm I do branding or I do brand strategy like, yeah, I know everybody does that when the other company is really just making them a logo. So the best way that I know how to sell what it is that you do is to demonstrate it, not to talk about it. Everybody can use the same language, and it's very easy to pick it up. OK, the lexicon of brand strategy or strategy or user centric or design thinking, everybody can say those words, the way that you do this is you to you demonstrate it on the call. Also, tell me something about your customer. Tell me about the customers that love you. Tell me about the customers that don't know anything about you. They go to your competitor. Tell me what you're going to do differently. So that it's not a race to the bottom and compete on price. That's how you begin this dialogue, I've had so many episodes about asking questions as a means to diagnose. And yet, so here we are when we just using words again, we're just pitching and selling. And so there's that line that I've said a couple of times already. When you say it, you're selling and when they say it, you're closing too. So the idea is to get them to say what it is that you think to come to this, to the realization that you want them to come to. And it's a way of asking very carefully structured questions. Think about it like playing chess. You have four moves that get checkmate. So each question that you ask is laying the groundwork for the next question until you go in for the kill. And I can give you some examples of this. I can most likely out argue person in logic, because I don't focus so much on what I think, I focus almost all on what they think. It is a lot easier to poke holes in a way a person thinks than it is to make your own case. Plus, it's not really effective. Most people don't spend an incredible amount of time thinking about the things they think about. It's your job to get them to start thinking about the things they think about. Let's share another success story. I see that mace has stepped into the room as you've closed strategy now for over five, right? Yeah all right. Tell us your breakthrough moment and tell us, like, what has changed? Yeah so this was for a returning client, I briefly discussed the story on Facebook, so this went from 300 to 508 100,000 1,500 1,000 and now 5,000. So I think the biggest challenge was to talk to the client in a way where we were no longer talking about deliverables. We were talking about their pain points now and talking about why them being a non-profit, whether or not addressing the types of users that they're wanting to come across with their programs, so specifically targeting universities and bringing in more people into their programs. So there was a pain point there, and I think when we started discussing that more efficiently, less so about deliverables because they wanted a logo, we kind of pivoted more towards those types of questions. And so when they wanted to prolong the call, I said, well, this is where strategy comes in and we have to have a few sessions based on that. And so they were interested and based on my tenure track with them, I've been a, you know, a vendor with them first. And so now it's becoming more of like a partner. So the track record has been building success over time. So that has definitely helped, and I haven't really been showing them any other results that haven't been truthful to their liking or to their needs. So they seem to have the trust there. And that's really what won them over, especially with the questions about what their problems were. All right, so I'm hearing that mesa's been able to kind of ramp up, and she first took a little increments and then she started going double. I think going double is the way to go. So when she went from 800 to 1,500 to 3,000 now to five thousand, just keep doubling it until you feel massive pushback. OK right. So this is great. You're in a good space. So getting 5,000 congratulations. Your new benchmark is not 5,600 or 5,8100,000. Once you do this and you provide real value and this is the conversation I had with Melinda, and so I'll share some of that unless she jumped on. Ok? is that when you do discovery the way that I hope that you guys do according to the intention of the core framework? You achieve a result that you've never been able to achieve before, and this has nothing to do with graphic design or web design or UX or anything like that. The result that you're going to achieve as a client who feels heard, who feels validated, who you help them to realize by making a small change that can have a big impact on their business. She said that she consulted for somebody ranker and that person changed their business model entirely based on their work session together. Now when you do that, it's hard to put a value on that right because like, how do you price that? Like, how do you price that? I gave you some insight that you could act upon that will dramatically change your business for the better. Well, then 3,005 1,015 $1,000 seems like a bargain to me. So if you do core and you're not actually. Well, there's a waiting room here, I'm sorry. If you do core and you're not actually listening, reflecting and challenging certain assumptions and guiding the dialogue, you're not doing it properly and you're not going to get those kind of results. So what Melinda was able to do was apply to somebody for free, a long standing client and say, I don't do that anymore. I do this other thing I can help you. They immediately saw the value that they then referred her to a whole bunch of other clients and then now are coming back to hire for something that she's never been hired for in the past. That's the result that we want for each and every one of you. That's how you get to $5,000 to strategy. This is how you're going to double your annual income. This is what you need to do. So if there are questions around this, let's talk about that too. Mason, is there anything else that you can share with us, like any triggers or anything that caused you to go from like is, are you the same person? Is may still the same person that when she was charging $800 to the person that's charging $5,000. Think mindset wise, no, right? So that's definitely shifted, but definitely doing strategy for free just on the side until we kind of got that confidence level up helped started doing it for free and then just started to slowly apply that to clients just to make sure I had it in check. And then that's really what helped was, was the application of that framework to an actual client and even if it's not paid, but at least you kind of get the structure in your head and you get a little bit more comfortable with those types of conversations with clients. So it feels less structured and it becomes more conversational. So just repeating that over and over and practicing was really helpful. And also doing strategy with other peer partners. Weekly basis that has definitely helped. So I'm doing something wrong. Someone else can point me and say, this is how it can be better in real time. So that has definitely helped. that's great. So who's your partners in crime here, Melinda and simone? Oh, go, figure. See, the Amazon women are getting together and saying, you know what? We don't leave you boys in the dust, you know? So just been a weekly thing. Yeah OK. So practice builds confidence. Yeah, that's good. And refining learning about how to tweak it so that you get greater value for your give greater value for your prospective clients. That's also going to build confidence. So very good. So I guess, for some of you guys, the frequency and the practice is what it's about. For some of us, it's just about trying to sell it differently. It's the same service. Everything is the same. But the two things that are in common. So far with mace and Kerry is that confidence. The confidence to do it. Or maybe it's just getting tired of losing or seeing other people pass you on the fast track of life, that sucks. It should be proportionate, right, you think it should be proportionate. The longer you're in this group, the more you should be able to sell your work for not the opposite. Who else has got a success story, a breakthrough moment, something that they want to talk and share their experience about. I could share a little timeline. Let's do it. So you got a new camera setup, huh? You got a new camera setup or is this your? I do. Yeah, this is a new camera setup. I can see the difference there. Yeah so I was kind of looking at the first time I so when I joined the pro group, it was in April of 20. So in, I think halfway through 2015, I found your YouTube channel, and that's when I started kind of binge watching some of the videos. And that's when the business of design. I started thinking more about strategy and just applying things that I learned from from the YouTube videos. And and I felt like I got to, as you know, as far as I could with just with that. And then I purchase core and joined the pro group in April of 2016. And so I remember joining the pro group and then like immediately reaching out to you. And I think the first time we talked was in may, so it May of 2016. And when we talked, I think you were kind of transitioning yourself to like this was all sort of new to you. And you said certain things like really stuck out to me even from then. I remember you said, Sean, this is like a six month journey that we're going to go through on these pro member calls. And I think this is like, right, when you started taking over the pro calls and you said, we're going to walk through like how to onboard clients and all this stuff. And you said, just trust me and do what I tell you to do, and I guarantee you're going to get the results that you're looking for. And so I just did. And so I started joining the pro call groups or the member. These things, these calls and and one of the things you told me, I think Aaron Pearson joined around the same time. And so as me, Aaron and wil and Tina, I remember we were all kind of like growing together, and it was kind of like, you know, we were trying to see who could get there first to start selling the stuff. And and one thing Aaron would do was like, you would talk to him and he would say, like, stop talking like, that's enough. I've already heard enough. I need to just go ahead and apply this and and that really stuck with me, too. And so it's just like, you know, I think I don't know if it's you or one of my other friends who told me that the phrase asshole, you could ask so many questions and then just like, get all the answers and never apply what you learn. And so I know I could fall into that rut. And so like when I start learning, I just have to start like applying immediately or else I'm going to forget or I'll learn too much to ask. Like, now it's information overload. I don't know what to do with it. So as I was joining these calls, I was learning and I was teaching it as I was learning and so again joined the pro group in April. Have that first conversation with you in may and I within so October of that same year, so five months I sold a strategy for 15,000 and that was my first time in 2016 was my first time selling strategy at all. I did it for free the first time just to practice with a friend of mine who has a coffee shop, and we were just kind of learning. And then the next time I sold it for like $500 and then I told you about I was all excited and you were like, not that impressed and told me, I need to like, increase it. And so I sold it for like $2,500 and then I sold it for 5,000 and then I was like, you know what? know this client of mine, they they had a need and they said, look, we need to know what our marketing strategy is going to be, and we have all this. We've never had a budget to spend on marketing. We've always just kind of done it sporadically. I said, look, you guys are a really big organization is there's so many different aspects of how we're going to go about this. I could do strategy. Usually I charge $5,000 which at that time I charge it. One time I said, usually I charge five thousand, but for this big of a scale, I'm going to have to charge $15,000. And they didn't blink. They're like, OK, cool, let's go ahead and do that. Like, what do we what do we get with that? And I was like, oh my gosh. Like, my heart was all racing and I just sold strategy for 15k. And and so, yeah, that was like in five months. And so I think like in your questions, you're like, you know, what was the breaking point? It's like, I don't know, man, everybody in this group, I think, knows more than I did at that point by the time I sold it for even 5,000. So one of the things I did was like as I was learning, I was teaching people as I was learning, as if I was already an expert. And so I positioned myself as an expert as I was learning. And I've always done that like from the beginning, like I like, right? When I started learning about search engine optimization for me, the best way for me to retain information is to teach other people about it. And so I do these like little videos about search engine optimization and people like, oh, you're like the seo expert. And I'm just like, well, I know more than you about it. So yeah, I guess I'm a professional in this. And so I talked about it all the time. I taught it as I was learning it, position myself as an expert, as I was learning it and then also having accountability like this group was. I think like we're having like a challenge like who could get to five k the first or and then like people just started doing it. And so there's kind of like an accountability. And yeah, so that's that. And then one of the things that you were saying, like just earlier in this call, was that you have to kind of demonstrate strategy before you can sell it. And so the way I did that was early on in my client calls, I would ask a lot of questions. So asking a lot of questions to prove that the solution to whatever problem they're trying to solve goes deeper than what they initially thought. So they would always come to me for like a website or I need help with like search engine optimization. And then you ask, OK, why do you think you need help with that? What are you trying to accomplish? Tell me about your competition. So who are you really competing against? And so I have like about an hour conversation with people, sometimes just asking questions and digging deeper. And they would realize like, oh man, I didn't really think this through. There is the solution that I'm looking for goes deeper than what I initially thought. And so that kind of demonstrated like, yeah, for me to really accomplish what you're trying to accomplish, we're going to have to do strategy. I can't just like guess at this stuff. And so I have to spend a lot of time with you. Cool, thanks for sharing that. You reminded me of a lot of different things in the timeline overview so. So in about five months or so, Shawn went from not even knowing what something was to knowing what it was and then being able to charge real significant dollars against that. And a lot of this is really just here's where I think I see differences in personality and let's say it's gender based or anything, but there are some people who are. I put myself in this category who are just smart enough to do something and dumb enough not to overthink it. It's outright levels, mum. You know, it's like, I'm just going to go for it because I'm kind of dumb smart people who too smart sit there and overanalyze everything and die. What is a paralysis by analysis? And then people are dumb or really hard working. They just don't. They just do everything the hardest way possible without really thinking about where they're going. Somewhere in the middle is where you want to be. So sometimes some of you guys are just too freaking smart for your own good. You usually go for it. I think Kerry is. Her background is in what is a product patent copyright something ridiculously difficult to even understand. But is it kerry? Industrial engineering, industrial engineering, see, like I went to a design school, I barely learned how to read, I barely form two sentences in my face and really just focused on my craft and sometimes just that. What people would maybe mischaracterize as cockiness is just too stupid to know that you can fail and just dreaming big, and then people will just call that cocky. You know, people are like, oh, were you afraid that you would fail? You know, actually, I never even thought I could fail. Like what is failure? I have a sandwich. I have a roof. I'm good. Let's go. OK, next person, please. Or any questions for sean? Otherwise, we're going to keep going. OK anybody else have their story like who's been able to sell strategy for five thousand? OK, jason? Yeah Jason knight, go ahead with the scary monster lady. What are you doing? Nope, unmute the scary monster what you got. Scary monster, light the lights coming from underneath you. I can see how it's it's the it's because it's like morning here. So the sun is reflecting. I see. OK next time, put a great card down there. I'm just saying, thank you. Good, you're good. Leave the light on. It's good. OK, go look a little bit similar to Sean. I've been in the group for probably a little bit longer than Sean, actually and trying to kick my ass, and the competition is fine. Now it is. It is a little bit different. I was actually doing a version of call before I discovered the group and it probably took me two and a bit years to let go of my own bullshit and trust Chris enough to do it his way. And it's been it's been a cool journey of letting go of, you know, doing getting the brand attributes and the style and talking all designer and actually just letting go of all that and talking solely about the the customer. So not just the client, but their customer and the solutions that you can bring. And the results are ridiculously powerful. So I would be less about a designer and trust that your design and you don't need to talk about styles and fonts and colors and talk more about what are the solutions for your clients, what are the brand attributes in that? So I've been selling coal for five k for a year and a half or more. I try to push it to 10 haven't really got there yet, so we'll talk about that. We'll talk about that. OK, so I have a couple of questions for you. Thanks, Jason. One is you said that you had a framework and I know because when I first was coaching you, you shared this thing that looked pretty good. It had a lot of similarities, but I wasn't really watching how you did it. And so you had said very harshly in that way. I finally like to let go of my own b.s., and I just moved on and then I was able to do it, and I'm quite successful at doing it now. What pushed you to, like, abandon something that you believed in so much that you probably worked so hard to developing to say, like, you know what, I'm done with that I'm ready to do the next thing. What was the trigger point? Just frustration of dollar levels, not just frustration that there was a lead on on me. And also I felt that what you and others in the group were were getting from clients was a lot deeper than what I could get from asking brand attributes, you know, getting, you know, styling and colors and fonts. And yeah, it was it was another level of of transformation that that couldn't come from design questions, right? Very interesting. So the I guess the power of the answer really is limited by the quality of the question. Yeah if you're asking the wrong kind of question, you'll get the wrong kinds of answers. So most of us, most of us that were traditionally trained as in the graphic arts, whether you went to good school or bad school, not judging anything. We're mostly taught how to make things craftsmanship, what looks good next to something else. So then it's natural then that when we get out of school, when we were running a practice that we ask similar questions. Does this look good against that, is that clean? Is that modern? Is that luxurious? Is that an aspirational brand? And when we learn a little bit about strategy, we start to construct our questions around the same kinds of things to help us make better. But the problem is none of the questions and none of the training that I was privy to. Asked us to focus in on the customers who are they? What are their pain points and challenges? What are the jobs trying to get done at home, at work and how do we help them? Because companies that help people succeed in life tend to be very valuable 10 to $10. Right so, so very good there. And now you're getting into this point where you're hitting five k all the time, and I see that you've transformed yourself and your company. Now you're trying to get to the next level of 10k. What has been the biggest challenge to you there? It's just my mindset. It's the same old stuff. Yeah are you getting pushback or are you afraid to say it? Probably both, but more, I'm afraid to say it. OK, now you and I had some coaching sessions before and asked you what transformed your life? You're like just because you told me I can do it, ok? That's what I'm telling you right now. 10,000 to do the kinds of things that we do, the kinds of things that I know you're capable of doing. It's peanuts. It's time, yeah, it's time that you graduate from the junior of the minor leagues and step up to the next level, your division one now, OK, it's time to move up. It's time to get that 10k and you know, you deliver the value. And how do you know that? Because when you look in your client's eyes and you help them to realize something fundamentally true about a client that they'd like to get more of? You can't put a price on that. And if you're not doing that. Talk to me afterwards, I'll tell you how to do it, tell you where you might be going wrong, but I believe you're already doing it now. And here's the game that we play at the office, and I'd like for you guys to do this. The game that we play at the office, I wonder how high we can ask for something and get it. I want to keep pushing, so Tina, and are at the office, you guys call will right there. So if you recognize that background, it's because he's in our office right now in the conference room. I told him that Ben burns sold strategy for 90,000. Our previous record was 50k look, we don't mess around you guys, we don't go like 55 or eight, 50 eight, we just go for it. And a lot of this happens to come around like we don't care if we get the job, we never care. So it's just a game, a game that has no loss and only wins. So you guys play a game that you think you'll lose, it's like I didn't get that job, I can't lose a job I do not have. You need to understand that. Yeah, you can sell yourself short. So Jason, there's very little difference between five and 10. I mean, we used to be 10 and 50. We're talking right, but five and 10. It's nothing. Go out and go, get it. All right. Go ask for it. I want you to get a couple of no's, then refine your sales process, refine how you talk about the work, how you show what it is that you do. Tonight, I'm down for 50, then let's get to 10, work our way towards 50, let's do it. I like it, ok? There should be a new rung on the ladder. And that's the 10k and up club. So we're going to keep going up there. So as you guys are entering into this, everybody's a white belt. I'm not good with martial arts. I do not know what the next color up is. But let's just say when you sell five, you're at the next color belt yellow. OK, so Kerry, mace, Melinda. Jason, you guys all have your yellow belt now. It's time to get the next belt. Move on up. Make room for everybody else. Be a trailblazer. OK, you guys show up, you know. What are you up to? 15, I believe. That's why I'm camped out at 5:00, I just charged the 15. Well, that's one time I'm and so I've been consistently doing five. OK, so Sean, you were a yellow belt kind of dipped your toes into the next belt, but now you're back to yellow because you weren't practicing those punches and kicks like we talked about so well now and now, Chris, I do have a question about that too, because if I were to have another client that is the same size as the because I know what their their numbers were and so right where I'm camped out at the at our 10,000 MLP is the one to about five million dollar businesses. This other company, there are 26 million dollar organization. And so I know that there are marketing budget was a lot more. They were able to afford more. And so I just kind of like Google search. You know what? What is an average marketing spend, how much goes to consulting, you know, that type of thing? And so, yeah, so I guess it also depends on like who's who you're talking to? So if I get an inbound call from somebody and I know that they're like a $2 million company, I'm probably going to go for the 10,000 discovery. I don't know. It's just me, though. Let's talk about it. This is where Sean is too smart. See, I thought he was smart or something like that, but maybe he's too smart. I don't know, because it never occurred to me to actually do research. If people ask me that all the time, like, did you like count how many heads they have, did you go? No, I just got this feeling like today I'm going to ask for that amount of money. I don't really care. Some people have come in the door and like crying poverty to me, I'm like, what does that have to do with me? What I do is still valuable. Let's look at this. You guys what is 5,000 by you today in the marketplace like for your from your customers point of view, your client's point of view. What is 5,000 buy them? What have they spent 5,000 on? Well, the luncheon that they put together for their executive team probably cost more than 5k. There it goes, looking at a new computer, wanted to buy an imac that cost five k. And if you go in there and you fundamentally help them gain new customers or optimize a system or ease customer frustration or on board more people onto a marketing campaign that they're running. What's that worth to them? Why are we so here's the thing, I think all of us spend too much time thinking about what the money means to us, what we have to do. How much time we spend on it. How much time we charge an hour. Not enough of us spend time thinking about what's the value to the client. And in our world, we spend two, three, 5/10/20 1,000 on stupid things all the time. So someone's going to do something significant for me and actually can deliver on that. I will happily part with that money. I told you guys before we've hired pr firms, social media marketing firms and have paid them $2,000 every single month, three or four months go by, I'm like, what value do we get? I'm killing this, I'm ending the engagement. I've burned six to 8,000 easily just to try an idea out to see if they can help us. Some of them actually do good work. Some of them don't. So regardless, amount that money, anyways, they're not doing discovery in me, they're not trying to help me ease the customer pain point. 10,000 is nothing. Will and 10 are going to spend that on a camera body alone. It'll be more than that. Yeah, so it's really nothing, you guys. We've got to get over this fear of what that money means to us. I don't care if they're a $1 million company. Give them a $10,000 idea. Write grant card down. One value exceeds price. People buy. I want my price, so I need to figure out a way to make it more valuable. The way I do that is to help them figure out something that's significantly important to them, not to me. When you can do that, you're doing well. Can I can I chime in? Yes, please. Perfect yeah. So yeah, we've sold strategy for 20000 now, which has been the highest and we're constantly so we've completely turned it into a game, which is fun and the exact same thing. Can you quote this for higher? Can we get it? Why not? Absolutely we were closing quite a few of them. One of our frustrations was here. We were doing all of this work and we were transforming businesses. We were fundamentally like. We had one of one of the lines in our sales pitches we've tripled revenues in a single year for clients. But the strange thing was, and it's something you touched on over the years was. You've locked yourself into a certain you you've made yourself a discount provider, you can't go back to the watering hole and say, hey, we've just we've made you $40000 a month more than you did before or 100,000. Let's just you can't do it. So what we've what we've essentially started doing is, OK, look, we need to we need to price ourselves accordingly. We need to be exactly that price and value. You need to figure out where that is. The other part is was the more questions we asked and this is this goes to your point about the caliber of the questions. The more we poke around, the more. And this is maybe the key to a lot of this is most businesses don't know what business they're in. They have no idea what they're doing. They don't know who their audience is. They don't know who their clients are. They're doing this because they like it. When you start asking about ideal clients or their position or what certain things say. All of a sudden they've come to you for a website. You understand, holy shit, I need strategy. I need more than I need more than just a logo. I need to understand how I'm actually positioned and what my brand is all about. And so that's really, really helped that sales pitch. All right, excellent. Excuse me. I was searching for who's typing here, so is it? Is it? Oh, I think it's Tina. She's sitting right beside me typing, OK, I was like on Facebook. I just wanted to. I wanted to say something to I. I think for me, the aha moment was I was just sick of working so many hours on design and doing so many iterations over and over and over again. It gets really overwhelming and you kind of feel like you don't feel as confident. And I find strategy really helps. I think you touched on it with confidence. It helps you feel more confident in your decision to why you chose the direction you did. And that's I mean, that's why strategy is so important. It's like, how are you planning on building somebody a brand without a strategy? It doesn't make sense. So it's not really an option anymore for us to sell a logo and sell a brand without the strategy. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes perfect sense. The the it's it's amazing how we've been sent to the drawing board a number of times back to the drawing board by clients who have no idea what they're doing. They don't like it. Yeah, and that's not their fault. Oh no, it's it's the blind leading the blind like it's it's a pun intended considering where we're sitting, but like it's just unless you can have something and you can say, look, this is the right decision, and here are the reasons why this will appear to appeal to your target audience. This will say the right things. This will show off in the right way. This will help you charge more for your product, service or whatever else. Having those answers really helps simplify the design decision. Some of the materials, everything. That's right. OK questions or somebody else wants to share their story, please. Let me scan the page here. Somebody else is sold strategy for five k or more. Brent, is that you? Are you going to say something? Now, OK, so you grab the camera, look, he's ready, he's live, guys, he's so excited. Jason, go ahead. Tina, can we have a side on belly shot? It's big guys. I knew this was coming. You don't have to say yes because somebody has. It's almost the size of his head. 31 weeks, we were told that it's the size of a coconut. Yeah, it's only going to get bigger. It's like an alien side of your body. So, yeah, OK. Anybody? anybody else, please? And if not, I want to open it up for a general kind of questions and inquiry any kind of questions in regards to strategy, how we're selling, how we're doing it, and then we'll move on to the next topic. I think I have a question and I don't know how to address it. OK just do your best to keep it short. OK, so how about trying to sell strategy with cultural differences? OK, now give me a little bit more information. What do you mean cultural differences? OK, so let's let's see this way. Right so and I don't I don't want to like sound like I'm racist or anything. I'm not just going to be fine. OK because you said so, but so so last week, I ended up having a prospect that was Korean. OK, now there's all these like stereotypes about koreans and all this other stuff, and I kind of had an idea of what was going to happen. But I think what I'm trying to figure out is even though the Korean, you know, even though I don't have a Korean market, like if I wanted the Korean market, it's either one. Try to find out the best way to get to the culture or leave it alone. And I kind of knew where the guy was going because I tried to mention strategy in a sense to him, and he just completely blew me off and goes, I don't care about that. Tell me what the price is. I'm like, oh shit. Like, you know, and I was trying to engage in a way that was cordial and also professional, but he just wasn't trying to have that. So I don't know. Well, let's talk about. This is good. Let's strip out the race part. Yeah, go ahead, Adam. No, because why do you think it's about culture and not just about the sales, right? That's what I was going to say. Let's just say like, you have a difficult client who's really bottom line driven. This could be a person from any sex, sexual orientation, country, race, whatever ethnicity. It doesn't really matter. It's just how do you deal with a customer who is just really price driven and wants to dictate the terms of the engagement? OK, so I have some thoughts on this. I want to open it up, ok? One is oftentimes how this person comes to you dictates their tone and attitude towards you, period. So what we need to do is to be able to be positioned in such a way that those kinds of people don't even dare to call us. Oftentimes the first thing that happens on a call with non-agency clients for us, an agency being advertising agency is Chris, I'm not sure we can afford you. I've seen you do all these really big projects. I've seen the awards you've won, so I may be over my league here or out of my league, over my head. You see, like now they have to come with hat in hand to say, can we even afford this? So now I know I'm doing my job. Melinda's in the room, by the way, so we'll get to her in a second. So how they come to you is really important, it's referred to you by family friend or somebody else that you gave a really great discount job to. You can kind of expect more of the same. And you are not that strong to force the client to do it your way. You have some tricks. You have some ways to pivot and use leverage, but you are not that strong. So let's just understand that. So let me dive in a little bit deeper and see if I can't diagnose the problem, ok? In this specific situation, Tony, how did this person come to you? So a violin maker referred him to me, and he's a he's a violin. He's now a violin and violin maker as well, but he's going into the retail business. So the conversation went straight to, you know, I was just doing a transfer of a website for the other guy, and he just goes straight to, yeah, well, so-and-so said, you did it for, you know, 1500 can you do that? I was like, it's a different situation. I don't I don't know what the scope of work is. You know, what are your plans? What are you looking at, you know, and he's just kind of went, well, you know, I'm going to open a retail store for violins and a couple of months, I need a website, but I don't know where to begin. So we just kind of had a conversation at that point there. Months go by. I don't hear back from him. I'm not. I wasn't looking to really chase it. And so when he recently contacted me now, you know, it was just kind of like, and I know that the money sounds like peanuts is just, you know, just kind of like something that I was trying to offer him. So when it came to now, I was trying to give them kind of like a peace of mind kind of thing and just trying to give him something of value for his business. And he just didn't give a shit like he just looked at me and goes, OK, whatever, what's the price? I'm like, I need to know what the scope is. What are your plans? What are your goals? You know, let's kind of take a look at it. And this is where I yeah, I was telling Melinda that I used her timeline thing and I was trying to do that with him, and he just had no interest whatsoever. So here's the problem that I can arrange something now. Did you talk about the range? Maybe by saying the range, I think I told them it could be five thousand, it could be more. And he just kind of was like, well, I need to know. And I was like, well, we need to discuss everything first. You know, let's let's lay it out. Let's find out what your what your situation is and OK, you know? And so I guess when I sent him over the proposal, he was just like, well, this is just too much for me. It's kind of like, right, right? You've broken like 15 cardinal sins right now. Yeah I realize that. OK, so let's go over them. I don't have time to outline all 15, but let's go through this right? Tony asked me a really simple question. How do I handle difficult clients then with with with trying to build brain strategy and to make it sound simple to them that they'll be like, OK, let's do it. Ok? before I can answer that, I want to tell you about this car that I bought. I was in the market for an SUV, so I was trying to figure you understand where it is going. Yes what am I not doing? We're not talking about price. I'm not answering you, I'm not validating you, I'm not doing anything, and I think I'm going to talk about what I want to talk about. I see. You see, so when somebody comes and asks you a very simple question, give them a very simple answer. And in this case, you're trying to close somebody. So the first thing is, OK, let's retrace our steps with Carrie here, because I wasn't sure when you dropped into the room, ok? So Kerry's big lesson among many lessons, which was try to kill the frickin engagement. Just do what I tell you to do. Don't want it. Don't need to care. I can't care. Whatever go on with your life. So if a guy comes in charging at you really hard. Try to kill it. Don't chase it. Try to kill it. You guys are too too busy selling. You think you're going to read a script and you can outsell everybody. That is not how this works. Especially the come in angry. I have a question about this particular situation. OK, so this so this call is about selling strategy as a standalone product, not as a lumped into a logo design. Right and so it looks like this particular situation was he came for a logo and we're trying to sell him strategy before we could give him a price on a logo design. Is that how that went? You pretty much summed it up. Yes OK. And is that it? Well, yeah. And then I guess the second follow up question then Chris, is if someone asks you for like, hey, what do you guys charge for a logo? You include strategy as part of that and charge just, you know, a lot of money, right? No, no. Let's talk about all these things. There's lots of ways to handle those things. So let me see here. And Sean brings up a very valid point here, so the guys come in and ask you something very specific. If you don't tell him he's going to go thermonuclear on you. So you can't avoid or evade this question altogether. You can say, well, typically I charge anywhere between this and this, and it depends on if there's an e-commerce like you should know at this point what's going to drive the price up and you should be able to articulate this to them fairly succinctly. Don't say I need to know your whole life story before you give them a price. Don't be afraid to say the price and get some level of commitment. And right now, the way that I see it, Tony and all of the all you guys are going to be a different stage in your game, in your life. So some of these, like I do, I would be happy to get 1500. Something would be thrilled to get four thousand, whatever the price is, right? So I'm not judging. So you guys, I know we're all different price points. Don't worry, I'm not here to judge, but I'm here to help you close the job that you're trying to get and which I'm totally grateful for. I'm still a baby in this whole entire thing, so I'm like, still crawling and I'm not trying to walk before I run kind of thing. You know what I mean? Absolutely let's not to get too big for our britches, right? We get it. So in a situation like this, how much money did you want to charge for that website? I was looking at like at least 5,500 because he wanted to move into OK. OK, let's just keep dancing. $5,500 you can say like my prices start around $5,500 for a website. Does that work for you? What would you say back, tony? I believe that might be out of my budget. Is there anything that we can do to maybe think you or you know anything? Is there any leeway that we can work around that? You know, and and I've been watching your videos consistently, Chris, like with like all the stuff like, I tried some of that stuff and he was just, like, really adamant about it, just giving me very short answers. And I think that got him upset to a point. OK, Tony. Million dollar baby. Don't go. The Korean store owner on me, right? Looks, dude. Just relax. Take a deep breath. I know victor has a question and I'm going to get to you in a second, victor. OK, just relax, dude. You do realize that the advice I give to Melinda is for Melinda. If it helps, I know. Awesome well, all of us are in a different situation. That's why a lot of people are like, I can't relate to Melinda doesn't work. So and somebody got really upset at me because I did a video on how not to get abused and not get overtime pay. Then they felt like the boss was going to fire them. It's like, it's your fault. I'm like, no, I just gave you a scenario. What you do with it. It's up to you, man. I'm not responsible. You get it fired. Come on. Come on. All right. So look, the situation is this. $5,500 I want you to change your voice in your tone and everything. Now, a lot of times when I do it on TV, it sounds super aggressive because it is. But in real life, I adjust to whatever's going on the energy in the room, right? And I remember you saying that what you like to do is you kind of like to take it down a notch, you know, when you're usually out of 10 on on on the internet. I'm sorry on YouTube. You take it down on a 14 on the internet. You guys have that. I'm not like that. I couldn't even stand myself. I was like that. Come on. Let's, you know, in real life, even what I have to say. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to be out of four. I'm not here to make war. I don't have time for that. OK so try and say things with a smile, it's like, yeah, you know what, actually? It's $5500, and I don't know if that's something you can afford. How does that sound to you? I always want to say that, but I don't want you to say it. I don't know. I just feel like someone would punch me or something, you know, like, not if you smile. You're a big dude. I wouldn't punch you. All right. OK come on, man. There's an atmosphere here. OK, so let's get to victor. Victor, what's up? OK thank you, Chris. Yeah, you're all welcome. Theatre he had his hand raised, I guess he lowered his hand. Maybe it was an accident. No, I'm sorry. Can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you. So my question is if our goal is to sell the strategy, how can I tell somebody, OK, my logo? Prices start at 5,500. And take the conversation from there from giving you that prize to ultimately guide him to the strategy because I don't want to do a logo. And go back to the old habits and being a transaction designer, I think here we go. You guys ready? Everybody that has struggles with this. Repeat the question, Chris. I would repeat the question and I'll tell you the answer. OK, so first, I'm going to prime you guys. Now we know the calls are recorded, but sometimes you know, we're an hour and some 15 minutes into it that you're going to be like, I can't find this piece again. So let's just make sure every 20 the 23 of you guys get ready with your pens and whatever note taking device you have. I'm going to teach you how to do this. All right. The question is, OK, so Chris, they're coming at you with the logo, but you don't want to just do the logo. You want to go and sell the strategy. That's the goal of this call. So how how do you do this even though you just floated the number out? You know, most of my clients don't hit me that hard at the beginning, just say, yeah, what's how much is this going to cost? Let's just get to it right? I have like a new York minute. I'm ready to go. Here's how you do it. We've talked about this concept before, but we're going to do it today until you guys have no more questions than you could do this in your sleep. It's a very simple concept, it's two words embrace. Pivot, embrace, pivot, embrace, pivot. Let's talk about the embrace part, the embrace part is I need to hear you, I need to understand you and I need to validate what the heck you're saying. If I don't do that, the pivot is no good. If you pivot, which is what Tony was doing, I want to punch him in the face and he's right because he won't answer my question. I'm going to slam the frickin phone down and be done with him. And that's no way to begin a conversation or dialogue with a prospective client. The embrace. What do you charge for a logo? You know, I charge somewhere between five to 8,000. Is that something that's going to work for you? Well, that's kind of pricey, but I think I can swing that. OK, so I've already embraced the ask me very simple question. Here's what I say. I said, you know what? I'll be happy to make you a logo for five to 8,000 all day long. But here's the thing. Why are we doing this in the first place? What's motivating you to need a new logo because it could be that you don't need a new logo at all and as glad as I am, or I'd be happy to take the money from you. I want to make sure that you're going to get a result that's helpful to you and your business. So what's motivating this? Hence, the pivot. Better understand that. I don't want to go on until you guys master this thing because it's such a simple concept on the surface. But so poorly executed by some of you guys. Now, some of you guys have children. A win's dinner, or are we there yet, are we there yet? Are we there yet until you answer that question? It's going to keep coming up. Tell me, how much is the logo? How much is the website, how much is the website? And at a certain point, I'm going to reach 10 and just explode. OK you do understand that we must embrace first, whatever the challenge the question is. Embrace you're not that powerful. You're not that slippery. You're not a ninja. You're not a master negotiator. Yet embrace. So once we get that part, embrace like wholeheartedly, I hear you, I feel you. I appreciate it. Thank you very much. But before we do that, this is the part that makes them question everything and the way you phrases and how you deliver this is very important. Before we do that, I have to ask you this question. Why do you feel like you need this done? And then you do what Trump does, which is this is classic guys, there is a Greek term, I don't know the term. I forgot it, but I heard it on NPR. A way of debating about saying something without saying it. And Trump is masterful at saying this. Like, I would never call you like to Kim Jong un. I would never call him fat and lazy. But you just call them fat and lazy. So it's this rhetoric device that you use. You say, like, you know what? Here's what it costs. I'd love to do it. Make me really happy, but against my own self-interest, I actually may want to talk to you out of doing this because it might not be good for your company. So in that moment, I'm demonstrating something that few of you guys are actually doing well, which is I hold your business and your money higher than my own needs as a business owner. I'm going to put you above my own needs. Literally I'm going to do it. Because it could turn out that you just need to hire some kid off fiber. It might turn out that you don't need this at all, and all is good and it's just in your mind. And why is this so important for you guys not only to do strategy, but to sell it is because once you do that, you will have been transformed. Your entire client dynamic and what you can charge them after this point will have transformed as well. It's that simple and is why I can't emphasize this enough. We'll get Melinda in a second to testify to this, but you guys understand. Embrace pivot. Who here doesn't understand who wants more definition or examples or something that they're experiencing that they're like? I don't know how to say it based on my own life experiences. Anybody, please. I won't attack you, I promise. We good know someone wants to say something, I heard somebody on meet themselves. Go ahead, Henry. Henry, what's up, man? So one of the things that we were going like, we need more data. We can't go any further because I need data showing me that your result. Your solution goes with what we've talked about. But how do you embrace them? Do you actually like that creative director? OK, sorry, I didn't have context. I thought you were asking me a question. OK so creative director saying we need more data. We need more data in order to back this information up. What is this information? I have no context. So who are the people who are coming to the facilities? What are the age ranges? Oh, OK, OK. Are they coming here? Got it. So that type of information, even though you've done the personas and all those things with them? Yeah, yeah. OK, so more information this will set up, perhaps to fail. What I would do is prior to doing the discovery meeting with them, I would say we need to have people who are going to know about who our customers are. So they need to be kind of on the front line. It can't all be executives wearing suits. Who who in our organization has actual experience touching. Talking to and dealing with the customers who's really close to them, probably people in customer service, people that are just brand new to the company working on the line. That's what we need to have in this meeting. And they need to supply those people. Now there's another way to do this. What you can say is we can do research to validate or invalidate what we discovered in this meeting. For that, I need to charge you another x dollars and we'll hire a research firm to see if this is true or not. Without work for you. Yeah so what research firms or do you know of again, usc? Most universities have a research department, you just need to know someone inside who can get you on the fast track so you can say, look, I want to know what women of this race between this and this age spend their free time doing. They have expert researchers to do this. It's fairly affordable, like we're talking about thousands of dollars, not '10s of thousands. They're professional professional researchers there, so maybe you don't have access to USC. Find one near your your town where you live and you're in Toronto. I'm in Arkansas. Oh, that's right. Yeah, you're up there. You throw me up there. So you just find the nearest university that's got a good research center and figure out who's doing it there. They have the resources. OK, so that's it, that's kind of how you answer that basically, you try your best to answer the question. I'm not pivoting on that one. All right. Let's see here. Melinda, you're in the room, right? Melinda, I saw her in a second ago. Whereas the second page. I can't find her now. She left, she bounced in and bounced out. She knew she was going to be on it and she was too scared. Don't be scared. All right. OK who is like? Adam, what are you going to say something? I have a general question. Go ahead. Do you think coal is the right framework to also do for starting business, which is basically stealing in some concept phase, or only better to do when we have some data to go with? Ok? you're talking about new businesses, startups and is. How do you profile customers when you don't even know who your customers are? That's a common question that comes up. Now, granted, I don't work with a lot of startups and the reason why because they're broke. But other than that, I have been able to work with entrepreneurs who are launching their own business, and I ask them the same question and they give me puzzled. Looks like we're just starting out. Chris, how do we know this so well? Let's look around. Let's look at adjacent business or a competitor. Businesses compete with somebody that's existing, right? So airbnb, before they were airbnb, was competing with Hilton or Hyatt or local mom and pop kind of bread and breakfast. So they needed to know who their customers were. A customer exists out there, you just need to identify them. Whether you have them today or not is not that important. It's who you want to get and there you can gain a lot of insight. So when I did this exercise for my friend. Who was trying to consult for a fast casual restaurant? I said, well, here's my observations for the same price point. Here are five or six people near you. Here's who they're afraid of. And let's let's look at their customers. And from that, we can understand a lot about why one customer chooses one fast casual place over another. That's how I do it. So you guys need to understand that core really is about the way even Josie describes it, it's a kind of more of a philosophy than a specific toolset. The philosophy is to help you understand that you need to know who the customers are. There's many ways to get there, and once you realize that fundamental truth about this philosophy, there are more. That you can adapt and change it to your specific needs. That's how I've used it. OK anybody else? Hey, Chris. Yes, fire away, man. Different versions of call her claim. I do customize, call for, say, a personal profile versus like a corporate or a department corporate. Mm-hmm I think you do need to customize it even for corporations, and I tweak it here and there. Now, I've not run core for a personal brand yet because very few personal brands can afford the high ticket price of getting in right. But somebody did ask this in the pro group. Can you run core for personal brands? Absolutely and I believe we've done some episodes on personal branding already. So you might look into events and switch to filter to past events and look for anything that's just personal or branding in there, ok? Search through that, you'll be able to find some things, but ultimately the brand attributes that that works sometimes personal brands. I guess they have customers to. It's just a little bit different. More or less, I think it could work and use. You kind of tweak it a little bit. So I'm interested in the different approaches that you might take, say for like, we have a global company that we work with and they have lots of different departments. OK we treat each one of those departments as its own little entity and treat the head of that department as the CEO, and it's its a little brand. That's interesting. Now is the company so big that actually have a lot of different sub brands or you just want to treat each person a little bit different? So the marketing department do a lot of events, for example, and each event has its own sort of brand, but there's the global brand. So sometimes we find a little conflict. You know, it's it's already they have their values, they have their proposition. But this event is actually a very different sort of market. Therefore, can we offer strategy? I'm just wondering if everyone's been through that process before. OK, so I'll open it up for anybody that's been through a similar process and get their their point of view on this and then I'll weigh in. Although I don't have that exact same experience, but I do have an opinion about it. Anybody works. Go ahead, Gary. I was going to say I have. I have worked with personal brands that have different, maybe not different departments, but like services and products. And I run core on each one because usually the service or the product that they're doing is hitting a different pain point. And the customers might be the same, but they're they're solving a different problem. So my short answer is yes, you can run or on the same company with subsections. And do you find you have to do a bit of a refresher on the the global brand so they understand from this to this? Or do you just treat them? Yeah, a quick one. But normally I treat it as if I'm running all over again. OK OK, now I have an answer as well. One of our clients is a big real estate developer and they have different properties. Each property has a different brand and a brand voice. But generally speaking, the customers who they sell to are the same because they have, I guess, what they call aaa buildings or an a-class building, which is a certain description about the level of quality of the building itself. So they will tell me, Chris, they're the same customers. You don't have to do that again. I get paid the exact same amount of money. I'm not in the business of wanting to repeat what I've done just because I feel like it. I'd rather get paid the same amount and do less. So this is wonderful so I can use that time for something else, more productive or helpful to them. So we'll pull out the old profiles. We'll say, OK, here's who we know profile one and two. This is still ring true, and if we do, if we if it doesn't modify it. So one time we took the same profiles, we flew to Seattle and they're like, oh, the Seattle market is very different. L.a. is about flash and cash here. It's really stripped down down to earth. If you came here, they will laugh you out of town with that same kind of vibe. So they profiled something slightly different and so we keep building on it. One of the dangers, though, is that if it's in a company that it doesn't actually have true subbrands meaning like Coca-Cola and nestl�� to own so many different companies, right? Those definitely need their own brand, brand voice and have different customer types, but when it's one company and there's different needs and objectives, it feels like we're helping them to silo themselves. Right, so the events or marketing team does something different, and the CEO does something different. And we're only creating greater division versus trying to bring people together. So what we should try to do is do something that covers the whole brand and that shouldn't change. But the users might be different and we're going to keep building on that. So over time, you might build six or seven or 10 different profiles of the different kinds of customers that they serve us. And you'll start to realize some of them do overlap and you can eliminate them. But now, depending on which meeting you have, you can be very proactive and say, it seems to me before starting that these are the three most likely profiles. Let me read them off to you really quickly, and we can modify or we can keep them as is. Let's save time. The brand is not going to change. Now let's come up with ideas based on what your needs are. Is that ok? Francis? cool. All right, Jason. Yeah, I I went for it's actually where where Cole came from, for me, probably about eight years ago wasn't necessarily it was a big company, lots of different brands. I pretty much made a spreadsheet, pretty spreadsheet with all the different brands and how each of these brands differed. You know that one tone of voice, one law who is the position and the sales guys were blown away that were just like, oh my goodness, this is the best document we've ever seen. Because straight away, they could see why they would go with one brand over another brand to one of their clients. And I thought directly that the same is your answer. But in one sort of a trade shape, having the 15 different brands of that company and who and why and where they loved it. So maybe that helped. Great all right. Any other questions about the selling strategy breakthroughs and then ask you guys a question. Any other questions about this? Please, you know, if you can't feel safe, yeah, go ahead. So, Brandon. Sort of. Can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you. Go ahead. I'm curious, but you're really low, though. Can you turn your mike up higher or something? Is there an option there? Let's try here. How about that? It's a little bit better. Yeah curious how everyone is delivering strategy after a court is completed. What documentation are you providing? How is that provided? Myself, I designed a package that's that feels like a premium product that I hand over. OK that's interesting. OK in case you guys couldn't hear, Brandon, he asked, how do you guys document your discovery? And he himself builds out a premium product that he hands over. That sounds super fancy schmancy. Ok? I think it's going to arrange. The answer could be as varied as there are a number of people in this group. Some people literally use the same framework and just pass it over, which is me. And I'll be totally honest with you guys. I feel a little lazy. I also feel like the harder or the more design I make it, the less I'm validating the ideas as to being what's most important. And if you want to do go like Mr. Mr. confident, I would hand over a word document. Like 12 point type helvetica, regular normal spacing, because it's the words the ideas that we uncovered that are truly valuable. Having said that, though, clients like some things that look nice. So recently, when I was doing a strategy with Ben and Matt, they overhauled the entire design to make it look super snappy, nice, and the designer does appreciate that. But the rebel means like, I don't care. Here's my ideas, not my ideas. Here's what we talked about that's important to you. So the summary, the insights are what's important. So here's here's a quick test for you guys. If you're doing discovery correctly, whether you use your own framework or core or some version that you figure it out on your own is if the first page that you include in that after the title page has a summary of insights that are valuable, then you know you've done your job. That's critical, because sometimes I'd ask Matt and Ben, like, where's the summary insights? They're like, what? What do you talk about? So you mean that you went through this whole thing and you can't tell me anything that you learn that's new. That's significant to the client. scrape harder. Or you didn't do your job. You're supposed to discover something and you should be able to write it. And it could be contained on one page because it's not like you're going to uncover like 55 different things it's going to be. Here are the three big things that we learned. Here's two or three more kind of supporting things. And now we can we can build towards that. OK so if you do a nice, significant luxury item, good thing. I don't think anybody's going to hate you for it. It's just a lot of extra work to me. And if you do it and you do a good job, it makes you happy. Go ahead and do it. Are you talking about like you're like carving it out in stone, you hand him like a slab of like lands on their desk? No, that is just designed to fill out the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I've added that to core and. Uh, just it's just a spiral bound, but it's not a special paper, it's oh, it's like printed and bound and nice looking. Yes you care a lot more than me. Good for you. Mind the digital PDF that I barely put any effort into, except for the words that are on the page. So like I said, it's going to run the spectrum, right? So how much do you charge to do that, brandon? Right now, I've just started core. OK, so, so still free. Yeah OK, good. You see? Yeah no, I wasn't going to use that word. He pulls up in a Corvette. I'm like in a Toyota. No, that's cool. That's good. Because whatever it gives you confidence and makes you appear more professional than you really believe yourself to be great. Right? I remember when I went to art center, the best instructor I've ever had at art center, walked in with black sweatpants that looked old, like he picked them up at target or something with white sneakers. And that's how he looked. So now he's like saying, if you judge me on my words and the ideas and how I teach while other teachers came in like with a nice suit and dressed really well, I'm saying if you have great words and you dress nice, you know, if you dress really well, then. Excellent so right now, I'm just kind of in the judgment on my words kind of thing. But that's not to say that making it look good is going to make it seem like you don't know what you're talking about, so you could do both. OK, here's my big question for you guys. Unless somebody else wants to come at me here, we've only got like 10 20 minutes left here before after bounce. The big question is, what's it going to take you to get from where you're at into the 5,000 club? Something is holding you back. So the thing that I can think of for myself is once I saw something, I just wanted that thing. I just went for it. But obviously, we don't all operate with that same operating system. So what is it that's holding you back like? Why did it take Kerry two years? Why did it take anybody in this group? Fill in the blank. Time to do it. I'm telling you, you just have to do it. But why you don't do it at that part, I cannot understand. So help me understand why you just don't do it. What's holding you back? There is a general fear of change, not just of failure, but even if I succeed in this, I don't know what to expect. So there is a feeling that, isn't it? What? that's the beauty of life, what if you woke up one day when you're three years old and you knew exactly the life you were going to live, who you're going to marry, the car, that you're going to drive the number of kids and dogs you're going to have? There's no there's no fun. I'm not saying it makes sense, but it just. But it's just something you might not have thought of yourself. OK OK, OK. All right. Let's think about this. You're saying that you may have a point, but I'm still illogical and emotional, and so I'm going to just keep that in my heart. No, it takes. It takes some time to release that. How much time do you want? Let go? I don't know. I let you know when I get. You know, Adam, you remind me of my friend, my very good friend. He's taiwanese, but there's a spirit and an energy about you that I like. OK, well, OK, you want yourself to have time. So this is the thing is like. And I've said this to you guys before, you know, we're all dying. The minute you were born, you're dying. You have a limited a limited amount of time left on Earth. I went to a meeting, I actually didn't go to a meeting. I went to see my dentist the other day. My my three times annual checkup. And some woman almost t-boned me like, you know, t-bone, like I'm driving straight and they have a stop sign, but they don't stop and they go right into the intersection. I can see it. And it was kind of like slow motion, like going to hit me. I turn a little bit. I was thinking, Oh man, in my mind is just like 1,000 thoughts like, I'm going to be late for my dentist appointment. I have a live stream later today. This is going to totally F up everything. I wasn't necessarily thinking, I'm going to die today, but that is a very real possibility. So if you guys just imagine that there's some person who's texting, texting and driving right now looking for your car. Maybe today will be the day you act and not tomorrow, because tomorrow your jaw could be wired shut. You know. You could be in a wheelchair for the rest of your life and you've got other bigger problems to solve. Today's the day it took, Kerry, two years, I'm basically yelling and screaming at her now saying, if you don't do this, I'm never going to talk to you again. That's kind of like what it takes sometimes. Today's the day, you guys, I promise you, it's all milk and honey on the other side, you just got to go for it. And if you're lactose intolerance, almond milk and honey. You can do this. This is supposed to be a group of 180 winners. Come on, you guys can do it. Anybody else want to share so openly and honestly, jason? I'm just making up for being two years of silence here, so I've got a quick question related to selling it, so just recently had two meetings with two new clients or were referrals, they wanted to get an understanding of what essentially core was about presented. It showed them some case studies gave them, gave them some referral agents like, hey, talk to xy z, and they both come back saying, look, it was amazing. Leave it with us to digest. When do I go back with debt or what? What's the next stage, do I find I follow yet? Well, how much do you think? Interesting, very, very interesting. So Jason is saying that he's done his sales process and now there's time in between now. Most of the time, you guys, I want to know if it's going to happen or not in the first call. So a lot of you guys are kind of making what I think is a one call setup to like multiple calls. And so this is territory I don't have a ton of experience with because I pretty much know right away at the very beginning. Now here's how I'm doing it. I'm telling them they shouldn't work with me, that they can't afford it, that they don't need this and that they should be content working with some second tier designer. And the better job I do that, the harder they dig in to say to me, I can't afford it. I do need this and you are the best. So you guys actually need to practice some of this trying to kill the engagement three times. Right because if you sell. Then they feel like you're chasing, and if you don't sell, they feel like they're chasing you. It's much better to be chased. It's much better to feel like you have that long line of people waiting in front of your door. So Jason, and your example here, it's like. You know what, tell me what your top three objections are in terms of who you're going to work with. And that direct with them. Price quality of the work. Your expertise in this marketplace, let's say those are the three things. Right? so price, you're going to say, well, my price is between this and this, and if that's not within your budget, I don't want to waste any more of your time. And is that price just the starting price? You know, the inside now, the tank price rather than? Or is it a good question? OK all right. I just say strategy price and I tell them this is just for me to do discovery. This has no deliverables. If you want to do identity design, that's K. If you want to do this, it's Fifty Shades. This and that, you just. But I just let them know that's where we start, and that's a great way to test their financial appetite for what it is that you need to do. Yeah can you feel confident just saying that like, yeah, I typically do strategy and help you learn about your customers what their wants in the pain points of challenges are because I find that everything else we do, if we don't understand that it has a very low chance of actually succeeding Like we could get lucky. But I'm not a gambler. Ah, you know, ok? So for that, I charge somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000. And that's going to cost exclusively deliverables. Now you can hire whoever you want to make your deliverables, but if you should want me to do it, I can do it too. And this ranges of prices I can talk about. Does this fit within your budget? Yeah, I'll do that. Yeah, I did a softer approach to that. And as a result, I got a softer answer. So yeah, cool, cool. So here's the thing, you guys, when you go on these calls, you know what the objective is. The objective is to know whether they're a good fit for you or not, if they can afford you or not. So let's not beat around the bush. Doesn't go right for it. Oh, how many competitors, I mean, how many people are you going to call to do this thing? Oh, three, OK, so what number am I just to be honest about it? Yeah, I want to give you guys the courage to speak your mind. This is the key. People will say, wow, that was a fresh breath of air. A designer who doesn't sit there and talk to me about fonts and colors, does it make me feel out of fricking brand questionnaire and really just says it the way it is? I like this person or I don't like them. I'm moving on and you're just better off not working with them. It's that simple. So that caller, there actually two face to face meetings for those meetings have happened. It's now spend a little bit of time. Would you chase them up? I just. At this point, I mean, just to follow down your rabbit hole, it's just to say to them, yeah, I yeah, where are you at? I just want to follow up. Are we good to go? What's what's holding you back from making a decision to move forward now? You know, I have to be harder, not soft. Yeah, OK. And if I don't hear from you, I'll try one more time and then I'm moving on or whatever it is. Do you want to say, say it? Nice to you or not, but yeah, but communicate the same intent? Yeah, cool. That's good. Thank you. Now I had a conversation with a gentleman today, and he went from doing $50,000 in one year, $50,000 gross to $1.4 million. The next year. And he's a creative. So I was like, dude, what are you doing? Maybe I need to learn from you. You know, he did. He just sent out a bunch of fucking emails saying, is everything going on in here and help you with? And just went from one thing to next. And I see you're at this company now. What's going on? Is there anything can help you with? And he just pounded out the emails. He got work, he did the thing that nobody here wants to do, like cold or warm emails. Sat down just did it, and he said they hired me. And he's in a groove. He's getting work. So you guys are needing more leads, some of you guys just might just need to sit down and just pound out some emails, see what's going on? Ok? obviously, it has to be based on relationships. You have otherwise people like, who the hell are you? But you can easily go down that list, so here's a 60 people I need to email and just sit down and write them all in email. OK, let's talk. I don't want to start a new can of worms here because I feel like I'm going to go over and I'm already exhausted as it is. So I want to ask you guys a quick question. Do we need to segment the pro group? Some people are feeling like there needs to be a new group and a veteran group, but then how does one decide what the groups are and what value there is to each group? I'm opening it up to have a discussion about this. What I need to know is how do we segment groups? And will people belong to both groups? Because then that's just double the work for me. Any idea, as you guys? Keep everyone in the one group. That's what Francis thing. OK hi, this is Kerry. Oh, right. I like the segmented. I'm in a group, right, a program right now that it runs. I think it's like 12 weeks. And then once it's over, which you don't have to do that, but once it's over, you can. And if you hit your goals, then you move into the next group and you're not part of that. It's the first group is called foundations and the second group is called leverage. So you do all the initial stuff, you meet your goals and then you move into the leverage group, but you're not part of both. But it's different skill sets. It's kind of taking it to the next level. And I have to say that. I, for me, getting to that next group is kind of a goal because it feels kind of exclusive and, you know, maybe like a mindset thing as well. It's like another goal to reach. Good OK. Thanks for your feedback. I have Melinda's feedback here. Even though she's not on a call, she wrote some things I want to share with you, anybody else? My vote is to keep it sort of as one group for the time being. But I can see the advantage for some of the more advanced or elite individuals such as like Butler branding and marketing and stuff like that carrying in, as well as actually who are in a significantly different snack bracket than some of us and whatnot. So I can understand how they would find a lot more value in that situation. But then again, they also may have the resources to consider coaching calls with you personally directly, whereas some of us may not. Right? good point. Perhaps the value in the Pro group as it were may not be as much for them anymore, but for us that are going to get to that point. Right? anybody else? I have say. OK, victor, and then somebody else, I heard two voices. Go ahead, Victor. Yeah, so Jason Kerry's response, so. And also based on the conversation we've been having here, I mean, is there anything different than the, if you will, the people that already hit by k will do other than asking for the. Extra K or extra 20k? That then it makes sense for them to be segmented to a different category. Yeah I don't know. I don't know, but they're all good questions. Victor, thank you very much. So I think. What some people are feeling is when new people come in, they're asking the questions that have already been answered many times over. So I think they're just trying to say, look, if we can somehow segment those people into a different group, then the people who are already through that initial period onboarding period can then just focus on things so that we're not repeating ourselves. That's the problem. So that the most obvious delineation that I can see, but let's just John, who also had a question or comment. It is, Henry. Go ahead. If you segment the group, something I can think about is going to take who's going to answer the questions for the new people who so maybe having people that can answer some of the questions or having some type of document that will take you? I know that we've already done some stuff where stuff is laid out, like if you're starting here, do xyz. But I'm just thinking about how do we not add more work to you in the work that you already have? Right? because I don't want more work either. So we'll figure out the tactics part once we figure out what's the best thing for the group moving forward. And to be honest, right now, some of you guys are not at where we can charge 5K and some of you guys are contemplating charging K. To me, it's all the same, really. I mean, until you start getting into significant numbers, when you guys start charging more than us, then I know we have a real problem. So my goal was always to keep that bar really high, so it feels a little out of reach so that I make room for more people to fill in. OK but OK, let's just keep thinking about that. Anybody else, adam? Generally, what I see is the problem for mothers and I can feel it myself is that sometimes it feels too much as a safe place and it needs not to be as much safe. So to push people. No so how is it being a safe place and how do we push people? OK, so that's what I'm not sure about, but there is no, but I'm I love it. No, there is really a lot of hand-holding. Yes, so maybe. It should be a bit of more butt kicking. Do you want me to give you what I've been giving, kerry? You do not want that. No, but I'm saying about the somewhere in the middle, you know, not to go, not to go. No, not to go. No, because not to go to too much of a safe place where it's just about raising our problems and then feeling better because I said it later. I see what you're saying. We don't want this to be a pity party where you go, oh, woe is me. Oh, poor you. You didn't, you know, bad client, you're right. But you also, I guess you don't want to get whipped by the coat hanger. That's probably too hard for you to somewhere in the middle. I get it. See all the Asian people like, oh, you're just too close to home, ok? I get it. All right, guys. Look, here's what Melinda is talking about right now. She's calling this the pro group cohorts, which basically it's kind of like a self-study subgroup. So basically, she's thinking maybe like it's for weeks and cohorts of a specific topic. Based on the protocol curriculum, you limit the number of people in each cohort, and it's led by one mentor from the group and use the outlined the structure that we've already established. Use zoom, watch relevant videos, discuss, apply, get feedback with each other. So that there's a clear action item and accountability. This sounds exciting to me. So you want to be able to leave with something and feel accomplished and then we can build testimonials. So some of the topics that she said, like biz dev, Legion onboarding discovery, project management deliverables how to get 0 to 5 k strategy sprint. Building your businesses, infrastructure, processes and systems, building the team, so each one of these cohorts has a very specific goal at the end. Mentors can volunteer, maybe over time we pay them, I don't know, and that's it, so she's like, maybe we can test that on one hop topic and see how it goes. Now, Melinda, still not in the room, right? I don't think she's in the room. We had a wonderful time chatting for the next episode with her. But you know, so here's the weird thing like I ask everybody, why are they stuck? And she very flippantly and defiantly say said. Am I stuck? Who told you I was stuck, stuck as a mindset? I never want to be stuck and I'll give it to this girl. I met her on the internet, you guys, and it's kind of crazy. This is like a match.com moment, right? I met her on the internet. I'm like, you kind of seem like you're willing to do whatever amount of work is needed. And I think that's the thing, like I think I know how to spot winners, and so when I'm picking people to become a part of the coaching, mentoring that I give, I try and align myself with people who are going to win. You know, the odd thing, too, is Rebecca. I picked as well Rebecca heineman, who is also in the group because she was super aggressive about saying, hey, don't leave the moms out of the equation. We're a big part of your market, too. So she made a really strong case for herself, and granted, I have not coached her very much, but it seems like she's doing OK. She's like looking to hire people, people in the Pro group, even. So I think the one connective thread that I'm hearing here is there are people who think and then there are people who do, I would prefer that you guys are part of the latter group. Stop thinking so much. Try it. The worst that can happen is you'll be exactly where you're at right now. And the best you don't even know what the best is because the best could blow your mind. It really can, guys, so if we can say to each other right now, the next call take. You try to kill that thing. You try to make it sound like they can't afford you and you just go through that and you stop caring. It's kind of ironic that Kerry's name is Kirra. It should be not Kerry not caring. But there she is. All right. Thanks for the air drums. I appreciate it. I'm here all night, you guys. Actually, I'm about to wrap up, so I hope you guys got your money's worth. All right. So here's the deal, guys. I think this is my last call for a little while because next week I'm going to be in Yosemite, and I don't think I have any mental capacity between now and when I emerge from the craziness, I have several workshops. A total of 12, some lectures, some workshops, and it's going to be madness for me. So I'm going to get some of the other guys to step up and run the protocols for me while I'm away. I think you guys seem to be more engaged when it's not me, so I'll give you guys a break from my ugly face and maybe we'll get Matt, Ben and Melinda and anybody else to step up and do some calls with us. OK and just like you guys now, so stay tuned for the next event, and some of you guys have signed up for Joshua tree, if you're in the United States and you want to meet us in the desert, that's going to be amazing. Ok? and I hope at some point I will be able to do some make up calls. We're off schedule. We can talk about some of the things that make you stop like fear. Do you want to dive deep into that? But I think those calls will be much shorter. We'll do them like 45 minutes. One for each specific thing that you guys are having trouble with, like procrastination or goal setting or something like that. OK, that's it for me. I got to run. It was good talking to you guys, and I hope you guys catch us on the live stream tomorrow and on Friday. But other than that, I'm going to disappear for a little bit. OK, I'm going to Europe, you guys. I don't know if you know, but. OK, take care, guys. Goodbye see you on the other side.

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