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Glad to see all of you guys.
And today I want to set the
intention for our call today,
it's about breakthroughs.
What I've realized
is that when you
see one of your own succeed,
it makes it more tangible.
I think I personally
don't understand it,
but I guess some people see
what I'm saying and my persona
and how I do it as unrelatable.
It's out of reach
for what they're
doing because they're a small
firm or they're solopreneur.
And when they see another
solopreneur, somebody who
has less experience and has a
smaller portfolio or whatever,
be able to succeed.
It gives them courage.
So that's what I want
to talk about today.
So I want to open
it up to anybody
that has been able
to sell strategy
as a separate line item
apart from anything
else not baked in, not
rolled in separately to share
some of your experiences.
And I'm going to frame it with
what has been your breakthrough
moment.
What has clicked internally
or externally for you
to give you the confidence
to go out there and get it?
So I want to give you a few
minutes to think about it
and then to share
our very openly,
and we're going to have
a discussion about it.
So I think what
we'll do is we'll
have a couple of people
share and then we'll just
have a roundtable discussion.
Anybody can say anything.
Ok?
and if we have time,
I'd like to talk
about what's making you
stuck and possibly segmenting
the pro group because
there's a lot of new faces,
a lot of new questions that I
don't want to force everybody
to kind of relive.
Having said that, I'm
going to open it up.
Somebody has some
background noise going on.
I don't know who that is.
It's almost sounds
like a cricket chirping
or I know what it is scrolling
with a mouse wheel, right?
Aggressively I
know it's not Eric
because his mic is me to know.
OK, now who wants to go first?
It's going to be that kind of
call, isn't it, who wants to go
first and nobody wants to go.
I could say something.
OK, go ahead.
Go sure.
OK, so Carrie, go
first and then Zach.
OK, let's do it, Carrie.
You have a couple
of minutes far away.
Keep it short and tight.
Yeah so my breakthrough
to getting to the first 5K
strategy only was not Carrie.
I know that sounds
kind of weird,
but not caring if I close
the deal because I would,
I think it changes the energy
when you go in maybe the words
that you say or they can
tell that you're desperate.
So the past, what has it
been now, three weeks or so?
I have been doing the
try to kill it 3 times
just to try to kill the
deal and just not go at it
as AI need I need this money
in a lack aspect, right?
Like a lack.
Yeah, there you go.
Scarcity mindset.
And so for me, it was
just I went for it.
That that was all there was for.
I mean, it wasn't any
different clients.
It wasn't any
different marketing.
It wasn't anything different.
It was still a referral client.
And I just approached
my mindset differently.
That's kind of nutshell for me.
OK, so I talked to
Carrie semi-regularly.
I call it all hours of the
night asking some questions
and getting feedback.
But we also kind
of exchange ideas.
This idea of killing
the job 3 times Carrie's
had with their being
since the beginning,
because I don't know when
our first call was together,
but it's got to be at
least a year or two
and I'm telling you to do it.
And there was that one
practice session I had you do,
and it's a story I tell
when I'm on the road.
And, you know, when I
tell my Carrie story,
it's that you found a
client that you don't want.
And I asked you to do
is try to help them
to the best of your ability.
And then you had
very glowing reviews
after that call about how you
felt in control, respected,
appreciated and valued
more so than ever.
And you've actually you
helped that person improve
their business and
their life in such a way
that they reported back
to you and told you.
So within 24 hours of me
telling you to do something,
you actually just did it.
And I told you,
remember your mindset?
Yep, and then you
fell off the wagon.
You started drinking again.
I started drinking again.
Yeah, I think, you know, we
make excuses for ourselves.
Life happens.
Bills come in, finances come in.
And you get into this
mindset of when is
the next project going to come?
I need to get this.
I need to close it.
But I have January and
February have been.
Crazy bananas by just
switching my mindset.
And that's all I've
done differently
is change my
quality of products.
Not any different.
I mean, nothing's
different, do it?
Nothing is different,
but my mindset.
So why did you decide two years
after me telling you to do it
for you to finally do it?
Because you challenged me, man?
How did I challenge you?
and well, I guess if we want
to be totally transparent, Yes.
Yeah, totally
transmitter parent,
I've been in the program
for a really long time
like I'm old and watching the
newer people start Lapping me.
That was kind of like, oh,
I've got to do this, you know,
there's nothing.
I know this stuff.
I backwards and forwards.
I practice it.
I got to get out of my own way.
So, OK, so it sounds
to me like some of us
are motivated by what we
can achieve, and some of us
are motivated by people
pushing us from behind.
Right?
competition from behind.
Not ahead.
Yeah, it's not a bad thing.
In my personal opinion.
I think we all can
lift each other up,
you know, to kind
of move us forward.
Well, yes, I am somewhat
pragmatic about this kind
of stuff.
I would rather you chase
winners than to get pushed up
by people coming up after you
and leaving you in the dust,
right?
Yeah well, so I've worked, so
I got to get into your mindset
a little bit in
that one exercise
I had you do for someone
that you didn't care about,
you felt fantastic.
You even shared it with me
in such enthusiastic ways.
and then you let yourself
slip back to other old you.
Yep, and it's not until
these new people coming
into the group pushing you
in a way not on purpose,
but they're pushing you and
then you're like, screw it,
I'm now going to do what I know
I should have done all along.
Is there anything else that was
able to push you over the edge,
getting over?
It's a lot of mindset, but
action, just doing it perfect
is not done.
I would ruminate on stuff
over and over and over again,
trying to get things perfect.
And now it goes out and
it just it is what it is.
You know, it's ship.
It is better than
not done at all.
So that's changed too.
I don't sit there
and kind of over
complicate the situation and
overthink things as much.
OK, I'm going to share
one more thing about you
and if you want to respond.
Otherwise, I want
somebody else to come in.
So whoever's going to be on
deck next, I think it's Zach.
And so he'll come on next.
OK, but here's what I want
to share with you guys.
Kerry's weakness in.
Let me put you on
mute there, Jason.
Kerry's recent win.
Followed a string
of losses that.
There was some
sadness and depression
because she's like, Chris, I
don't know what's going on.
I put this work in and I thought
I was going to get the gig
and I didn't, and
it's so disappointing.
I thought I did
everything right.
And that prompted me to
ask her a couple of things,
and I asked her, why
are you losing it?
Well, there's a new
person in my community
who is undercutting
us by 90% She's
charging 10% of what I charge.
How do I compete against that?
What do I do?
And your instinct is OK.
I have to lower my prices.
And I said, is this
person constantly
competing against you?
And she's like, Yes.
So if you know this, why
haven't you addressed it?
I don't know.
And I don't know why.
So this was then now us kind
of having a dialogue about
if you have competition, that's
going to be 10% of your cost.
If you don't address
it, you are in essence
going to lose the job
by your own inaction
or by design intention
or otherwise.
So here's what I
advise Kerry to do,
and you guys definitely
want to listen to this part.
OK, Yeah.
Listen to this, guys.
It was like it was a shift
in thinking big time.
So I told Kerry, the
next time somebody calls
you ring ring, new
business, I want
you to ask them this question.
How many people have you
spoken to prior talking to me?
No wedding.
Oh, OK, well, so
I'm your first call.
Well, I'm glad you called.
But here's the thing I want
to save you a lot of time.
Most likely, I'm going to be
the most expensive person you're
going to talk to.
I'll explain why later.
But here's what I think.
I think you owe it to yourself
to talk to a bunch of people
and then call me last.
Call me last once you know
what each person has to offer.
And I'm going to explain
to you why then you're
going to want to go with
the most expensive option
because I do things that
these other people do not do.
Now they'll use certain
kind of language.
What I'd ask you to do is
push them to be more specific.
And then after which you
can come back and we'll talk
and we can schedule
the call now or later.
Kerry is like, oh, OK,
they're going to call me,
he'll call me back.
Really?
Yeah.
OK, so like a good
soldier at this point?
Kerry does it, the
very next client,
and then she reports
back to me right away.
She said it.
Was really scary.
I don't know, man.
And I'm paraphrasing for
the sake of time here.
And then a couple of days
later, she said they called back
and the way she texted
me this message.
It sounded like
she was surprised.
And it said it was
so you're surprised,
like you have no trust in
faith and with the things I
tell you to do.
Then she backpedaled a
little bit and try to like,
show me your way out of it.
I didn't buy any of it.
Basically low, low faith there.
But she did do it still,
and they did call her back.
And then she then
started to articulate
the differences
between what she did
versus what somebody else did.
And now they knew.
And she addressed it head on.
And it sounds
counterintuitive that she's
telling a prospect to go away.
Actually, she's so bold to
say go away and call me last.
Because we know a
lot of times clients
won't even call you,
let alone call you last.
It's shifted the
power dynamic from one
that is needy to one that
was in control and in charge.
All right, Yep.
And for statistics wise, I've
done eight of those calls
where I have told
them to call me last
and I have closed five of them.
Wow, look, Zach gives you
the silent tennis clap
there is perfect, Yeah.
It is scary and it's
counterintuitive, but it works.
It works well.
It's counterintuitive to you.
It's totally intuitive.
Right, right.
Because this is how
you're supposed to do it.
Now, when you close
over 50 percent,
if you close it 50 percent,
you are a rock star.
If you were in baseball,
that it's called batting 500
I think, right, like
1,000 is perfect.
And I've only had one
to not call me back.
Like to get on a call
like and to call back.
I want that client
did you a favor
by not calling me back,
sucking up your time,
setting up false
hope and expectation?
Yeah, I'll just try it.
It's kind of scary at first
to do the very first one,
and I actually wrote
down a script for it
that when Chris and I talked so
I wouldn't back out, you know,
and it I mean, it worked.
It worked really well.
So that's what I know
that in the space
that I'm competing in, that
I have those people that
are massively
undercutting me and I
know who these people
are going to go to
and you guys probably
have the same.
Everybody has, yeah, everybody.
I don't want to have
somebody undercutting
you is you're the guy or gal
undercutting everybody else?
MHM that's the only way.
And we don't want you to do
that in this group, obviously.
Now, when I tell you guys a
couple of things as to why this
works, there's such
thing as called
the principle of scarcity and
the principle of social proof.
In Dr. Houdini's book.
Now, let's imagine a
situation right now.
You you're hungry.
It's dinnertime, and
you and your best friend
or whoever is, you're looking
for a place to eat in your new
in town and there's you're
in the middle of the street
and to your left is one
cafe and restaurant.
And you're right, there's
one cafe and restaurant.
The one on the left has
a line out the door.
It's hustling and
bustling with energy.
The one on the right
has an older couple
sitting in the store
somewhere near the back
or the restaurant.
Without knowing anything
about either restaurant,
which one are you more
inclined to go to?
Would you ever try the one
with just two people in it?
Or will you be like, oh, what,
what's that line all about?
This must be good.
Everybody knows
something that I don't.
Anybody here, would you choose
the one that nobody goes to?
OK, so this is
social proof, this
is why also some
restaurants, while there
are plenty of tables,
do not seat everybody.
They want a line
to form at the door
because they also realize
the same psychological effect
that a person that is in
demand by other people
is some somebody
you want to go to.
So how do you create
this illusion of demand?
Social proof when you're on the
phone because there is no line,
you have to act as if
there's a line you don't
want to be bothered by them.
So what Kerry did in this
one instance by telling them,
go away.
Go talk to other people.
It's like, you know, I already
have the best restaurant
and I don't want to
deal with your attitude.
So why don't you go
eat a couple of places
and come back when you
realize that they already
serve you mediocre food to
think to when they go away
and they talk to your
underpriced competitor,
they're going to be more
vigilant by asking them
certain kinds of questions.
Because now you've planted
the seed in their brain
that these people
are less than you.
Do you understand that?
It's like saying, is
the food too salty
and then all of a sudden
you think it's already too
salty before you even try it?
And that's what's happening now.
Let's take it one step
further and just use
the cafe restaurant metaphor a
little bit or the analogy here.
Let's just say there is
number line at the door
and you walk up and
they say, do you
have a reservation where
three months booked solid?
That's the next level now.
Now you can't even get in,
even if you waited in line.
You have to make an appointment.
So these are all psychological,
psychological things
that you guys can do.
But I think the key lesson
here it was a couple.
One is if there's an elephant in
the room, you must address it.
If if you know, you're
the smallest company,
if you know you're going to
be the most expensive company,
if you have the
least experience,
you have to address it on the
call in the first meeting prior
to you even thinking you
have a shot because there's
no point in you building
a proposal or an estimate
because you're not
going to get it anyways.
Period lesson
number two, which I
think is the more
important lesson
is why the hell are you
guys waiting so long
to do the things
I tell you to do,
which is the bigger issue
altogether, because it's
a sad day for me that less
than 10% of this group
is in the 5,000 strategy club.
OK, you guys don't
need any other props.
You don't need anything
else to hold you up.
Because you already have all
the tools that you need already
carries the exact same
person, same exact client,
same exact everything.
The only thing that
changed was the words
that came out of her mouth
and sometimes even the words
that you say you don't believe.
But as long as you
say it, eventually you
will believe the words that you
say now carry anything else.
You want to add to
this, and I'm going
to open up to some questions
and we're moving on to Zach.
I was going to say to
the other 10, I changed.
I was trying to think of
everything that I changed.
Instead of I do web.
So most people come to the
site and want to contact me
and query, I've changed
that now to an application.
So it's almost like an interview
to work with me instead of me
wanting to get the work.
That was another
thing that I did.
Can you hear me?
Yeah, I can hear you, just
give me the silent treatment.
You've got to be
comfortable silence.
Oh shit, I well, I
didn't know if I could.
You were making like
face, so I wasn't sure
if you could hear me.
OK, let's open up any questions
around the conversation
that Carrie and I just had.
If you want more nuance or
more information or questions.
Let's talk about it
now so we can move.
Move to the next issue.
Anybody Zach has a jump off.
OK he just left.
Bye, Zach.
Sorry, we missed you.
Took up all your time.
Jason, the question.
Wait, hold on, who's talking?
I can't see.
This is victor, Victor.
Go ahead.
Ask your question.
So Kerry, what's the response
that you get from the clients
once you tell them to go
and talk to other people
before coming to you?
What's the usually?
I think that is a common
response that you get.
Can you share that with us?
Yeah so far it's been positive.
I haven't had really
any pushback whatsoever.
It's been.
OK you know, you know, I think
a couple like kind of surprised,
but yeah, no, it's
been real positive.
It hasn't been.
I thought it was
going to be like,
let's just talk about it now
and we can talk later and a lot
of pushback.
And it hasn't been.
Thank you.
all right.
I have a question
follow up as well.
What were you afraid
that was going to happen?
That never happened.
Um, I was afraid that I would
lose all these inquiries.
That was already losing
money to begin with.
Right, but that
was still the fear
that I was afraid of getting
the exact same results you
were getting from any changes.
Pretty clear.
Yes, pretty much.
OK, anything else?
no, I mean, that
was the fear that
was the I can't believe
I'm at first, I'm like,
I'm turning people away and
this is kind of like lost.
It felt like lost
opportunity at first.
OK, but yeah, that's it.
You guys know Stephen
Covey's quote, right?
7 Habits of Highly
Successful People.
If you keep doing
what you're doing,
you're going to keep
getting what you're getting.
That's the clear
thing that I can say.
You want different results,
but you do the same thing.
You want to close jobs,
you want to sell strategy,
you want to stop losing.
Ask yourself why you're so
married to a process that
is not working.
And I understand it's the
one you're familiar with,
but if you'd like
to taste it, defeat
the taste of not achieving
your goals, keep doing it.
You also have me
double my rates.
Well, we can get
into that as well.
I'm just saying, all right.
All right.
Jason Knight from Australia.
Yo Yo, did you know I might have
missed the first little piece?
But did you know why you
were missing out originally
and who your competitors were?
Good question.
I'm sorry, I was checking
on kids and that.
I'll tell you what.
OK, Jason.
My question was,
you know why you
were missing out on the gigs?
First of all, and you know
who your competitors were?
I know who my competitors are.
Yes and I think
I was missing out
because I was coming at
the inquiries as line items
and comparing very
deliverable instead
of coming at it as a strategy.
The results that they will
get when talking to them.
The second time it was
more it was very tactical
in the beginning.
So when they're comparing me
to someone that is 90% lower
than me, that is talking
very line item deliverable,
then it's hard to compare.
So it's just kind of changing,
changing the dialogue.
So it's a little bit
more on the results
that you give them and
the goals, their goals.
Yeah so less, you know, than
our website UX and more strategy
results where you're heading.
Yeah, that's not the
past conversations
that I've been having.
The actual what we
do is not really
coming up that much
like a website and logo,
or it is more focused on
their goals, their problems
and the results
that they can get.
Scott, I do want
to say something
real quick on this thing here.
I don't know if
you guys know this,
but a lot of people
in our industry
use the same language that
we talk about within this.
Good point about that one.
And just because they
use the same language,
it muddies the water.
A lot of people don't
actually do branding
but say they do branding.
So when you say, oh, I'm I do
branding or I do brand strategy
like, yeah, I know
everybody does that when
the other company is really
just making them a logo.
So the best way that I know how
to sell what it is that you do
is to demonstrate it,
not to talk about it.
Everybody can use
the same language,
and it's very easy
to pick it up.
OK, the lexicon of brand
strategy or strategy
or user centric or design
thinking, everybody
can say those words, the way
that you do this is you to you
demonstrate it on the call.
Also, tell me something
about your customer.
Tell me about the
customers that love you.
Tell me about the customers that
don't know anything about you.
They go to your competitor.
Tell me what you're
going to do differently.
So that it's not a race to the
bottom and compete on price.
That's how you
begin this dialogue,
I've had so many episodes
about asking questions
as a means to diagnose.
And yet, so here we are when
we just using words again,
we're just pitching and selling.
And so there's that line that
I've said a couple of times
already.
When you say it, you're
selling and when they say it,
you're closing too.
So the idea is to
get them to say
what it is that
you think to come
to this, to the realization
that you want them to come to.
And it's a way of asking very
carefully structured questions.
Think about it
like playing chess.
You have four moves
that get checkmate.
So each question that
you ask is laying
the groundwork for
the next question
until you go in for the kill.
And I can give you
some examples of this.
I can most likely out
argue person in logic,
because I don't focus
so much on what I think,
I focus almost all
on what they think.
It is a lot easier to
poke holes in a way
a person thinks than it
is to make your own case.
Plus, it's not really effective.
Most people don't spend
an incredible amount
of time thinking about the
things they think about.
It's your job to
get them to start
thinking about the
things they think about.
Let's share another
success story.
I see that mace has
stepped into the room
as you've closed strategy
now for over five, right?
Yeah all right.
Tell us your breakthrough
moment and tell us,
like, what has changed?
Yeah so this was for
a returning client,
I briefly discussed
the story on Facebook,
so this went from 300
to 508 100,000 1,500
1,000 and now 5,000.
So I think the
biggest challenge was
to talk to the client in a way
where we were no longer talking
about deliverables.
We were talking about
their pain points
now and talking about why
them being a non-profit,
whether or not addressing
the types of users
that they're wanting to come
across with their programs,
so specifically
targeting universities
and bringing in more
people into their programs.
So there was a pain
point there, and I
think when we started discussing
that more efficiently, less so
about deliverables because
they wanted a logo,
we kind of pivoted more towards
those types of questions.
And so when they wanted to
prolong the call, I said,
well, this is where
strategy comes in
and we have to have a few
sessions based on that.
And so they were
interested and based
on my tenure track
with them, I've been a,
you know, a vendor
with them first.
And so now it's becoming
more of like a partner.
So the track record has been
building success over time.
So that has definitely
helped, and I haven't really
been showing them any
other results that
haven't been truthful to their
liking or to their needs.
So they seem to have
the trust there.
And that's really
what won them over,
especially with the questions
about what their problems were.
All right, so I'm
hearing that mesa's
been able to kind of
ramp up, and she first
took a little increments and
then she started going double.
I think going double
is the way to go.
So when she went from
800 to 1,500 to 3,000 now
to five thousand,
just keep doubling it
until you feel massive pushback.
OK right.
So this is great.
You're in a good space.
So getting 5,000
congratulations.
Your new benchmark is
not 5,600 or 5,8100,000.
Once you do this and you
provide real value and this is
the conversation I
had with Melinda,
and so I'll share some of
that unless she jumped on.
Ok?
is that when you do
discovery the way
that I hope that you
guys do according
to the intention of
the core framework?
You achieve a result
that you've never
been able to achieve
before, and this
has nothing to do with graphic
design or web design or UX
or anything like that.
The result that you're going to
achieve as a client who feels
heard, who feels
validated, who you
help them to realize by making
a small change that can have
a big impact on their business.
She said that she consulted
for somebody ranker
and that person changed their
business model entirely based
on their work session together.
Now when you do that, it's hard
to put a value on that right
because like, how
do you price that?
Like, how do you price that?
I gave you some
insight that you could
act upon that will
dramatically change
your business for the better.
Well, then 3,005 1,015 $1,000
seems like a bargain to me.
So if you do core and
you're not actually.
Well, there's a waiting
room here, I'm sorry.
If you do core and
you're not actually
listening, reflecting and
challenging certain assumptions
and guiding the dialogue,
you're not doing it properly
and you're not going to
get those kind of results.
So what Melinda was able to do
was apply to somebody for free,
a long standing client and
say, I don't do that anymore.
I do this other
thing I can help you.
They immediately saw
the value that they then
referred her to a whole
bunch of other clients
and then now are coming back to
hire for something that she's
never been hired
for in the past.
That's the result that we want
for each and every one of you.
That's how you get to
$5,000 to strategy.
This is how you're going to
double your annual income.
This is what you need to do.
So if there are
questions around this,
let's talk about that too.
Mason, is there anything else
that you can share with us,
like any triggers
or anything that
caused you to go from like
is, are you the same person?
Is may still the
same person that when
she was charging $800 to the
person that's charging $5,000.
Think mindset wise, no, right?
So that's definitely shifted,
but definitely doing strategy
for free just on the
side until we kind of got
that confidence level up helped
started doing it for free
and then just started
to slowly apply
that to clients just to
make sure I had it in check.
And then that's
really what helped
was, was the application of that
framework to an actual client
and even if it's not paid,
but at least you kind of get
the structure in
your head and you
get a little bit more
comfortable with those types
of conversations with clients.
So it feels less structured and
it becomes more conversational.
So just repeating that over
and over and practicing
was really helpful.
And also doing strategy
with other peer partners.
Weekly basis that has
definitely helped.
So I'm doing something wrong.
Someone else can
point me and say,
this is how it can be
better in real time.
So that has definitely helped.
that's great.
So who's your partners in
crime here, Melinda and simone?
Oh, go, figure.
See, the Amazon women are
getting together and saying,
you know what?
We don't leave you boys
in the dust, you know?
So just been a weekly thing.
Yeah OK.
So practice builds confidence.
Yeah, that's good.
And refining learning
about how to tweak it
so that you get
greater value for your
give greater value for
your prospective clients.
That's also going
to build confidence.
So very good.
So I guess, for
some of you guys,
the frequency and the
practice is what it's about.
For some of us, it's just about
trying to sell it differently.
It's the same service.
Everything is the same.
But the two things
that are in common.
So far with mace and
Kerry is that confidence.
The confidence to do it.
Or maybe it's just getting
tired of losing or seeing
other people pass you on the
fast track of life, that sucks.
It should be
proportionate, right,
you think it should
be proportionate.
The longer you're in
this group, the more
you should be able to sell
your work for not the opposite.
Who else has got a success
story, a breakthrough moment,
something that they
want to talk and share
their experience about.
I could share a little timeline.
Let's do it.
So you got a new
camera setup, huh?
You got a new camera
setup or is this your?
I do.
Yeah, this is a
new camera setup.
I can see the difference there.
Yeah so I was kind of
looking at the first time I
so when I joined the pro
group, it was in April of 20.
So in, I think
halfway through 2015,
I found your YouTube
channel, and that's
when I started kind of binge
watching some of the videos.
And that's when the
business of design.
I started thinking
more about strategy
and just applying
things that I learned
from from the YouTube videos.
And and I felt like I
got to, as you know,
as far as I could
with just with that.
And then I purchase core
and joined the pro group
in April of 2016.
And so I remember
joining the pro group
and then like immediately
reaching out to you.
And I think the first
time we talked was in may,
so it May of 2016.
And when we talked,
I think you were
kind of transitioning
yourself to like this
was all sort of new to you.
And you said certain things
like really stuck out to me even
from then.
I remember you said, Sean, this
is like a six month journey
that we're going to go through
on these pro member calls.
And I think this is
like, right, when
you started taking over
the pro calls and you said,
we're going to walk
through like how to onboard
clients and all this stuff.
And you said, just trust me
and do what I tell you to do,
and I guarantee you're going
to get the results that you're
looking for.
And so I just did.
And so I started joining the
pro call groups or the member.
These things, these calls
and and one of the things
you told me, I
think Aaron Pearson
joined around the same time.
And so as me, Aaron
and wil and Tina,
I remember we were all kind
of like growing together,
and it was kind of
like, you know, we
were trying to see who
could get there first
to start selling the stuff.
And and one thing Aaron would do
was like, you would talk to him
and he would say, like, stop
talking like, that's enough.
I've already heard enough.
I need to just go
ahead and apply this
and and that really
stuck with me, too.
And so it's just
like, you know, I
think I don't know if it's
you or one of my other friends
who told me that
the phrase asshole,
you could ask so many
questions and then just like,
get all the answers and
never apply what you learn.
And so I know I could
fall into that rut.
And so like when
I start learning,
I just have to start like
applying immediately or else
I'm going to forget or
I'll learn too much to ask.
Like, now it's
information overload.
I don't know what to do with it.
So as I was joining these
calls, I was learning
and I was teaching it as I was
learning and so again joined
the pro group in April.
Have that first conversation
with you in may and I
within so October
of that same year,
so five months I sold
a strategy for 15,000
and that was my
first time in 2016
was my first time
selling strategy at all.
I did it for free
the first time just
to practice with a friend of
mine who has a coffee shop,
and we were just
kind of learning.
And then the next time
I sold it for like $500
and then I told you
about I was all excited
and you were like, not
that impressed and told me,
I need to like, increase it.
And so I sold it for like $2,500
and then I sold it for 5,000
and then I was
like, you know what?
know this client of mine, they
they had a need and they said,
look, we need to know what our
marketing strategy is going
to be, and we have all this.
We've never had a budget
to spend on marketing.
We've always just kind
of done it sporadically.
I said, look, you guys are
a really big organization
is there's so many
different aspects of how
we're going to go about this.
I could do strategy.
Usually I charge $5,000 which
at that time I charge it.
One time I said, usually
I charge five thousand,
but for this big of
a scale, I'm going
to have to charge $15,000.
And they didn't blink.
They're like, OK, cool,
let's go ahead and do that.
Like, what do we what
do we get with that?
And I was like, oh my gosh.
Like, my heart was
all racing and I just
sold strategy for 15k.
And and so, yeah, that
was like in five months.
And so I think like in your
questions, you're like,
you know, what was
the breaking point?
It's like, I don't know,
man, everybody in this group,
I think, knows more than I
did at that point by the time
I sold it for even 5,000.
So one of the things I did
was like as I was learning,
I was teaching people
as I was learning,
as if I was already an expert.
And so I positioned myself as
an expert as I was learning.
And I've always done that
like from the beginning,
like I like, right?
When I started learning about
search engine optimization
for me, the best way for
me to retain information
is to teach other
people about it.
And so I do these like little
videos about search engine
optimization and people like,
oh, you're like the seo expert.
And I'm just like, well, I
know more than you about it.
So yeah, I guess I'm a
professional in this.
And so I talked about
it all the time.
I taught it as I was
learning it, position myself
as an expert, as I was
learning it and then
also having accountability
like this group was.
I think like we're having
like a challenge like who
could get to five k the
first or and then like people
just started doing it.
And so there's kind of
like an accountability.
And yeah, so that's that.
And then one of
the things that you
were saying, like just
earlier in this call,
was that you have to kind
of demonstrate strategy
before you can sell it.
And so the way I did that was
early on in my client calls,
I would ask a lot of questions.
So asking a lot of
questions to prove
that the solution to whatever
problem they're trying to solve
goes deeper than what
they initially thought.
So they would always come
to me for like a website
or I need help with like
search engine optimization.
And then you ask, OK, why do you
think you need help with that?
What are you trying
to accomplish?
Tell me about your competition.
So who are you really
competing against?
And so I have like about an
hour conversation with people,
sometimes just asking
questions and digging deeper.
And they would realize like,
oh man, I didn't really
think this through.
There is the solution that
I'm looking for goes deeper
than what I initially thought.
And so that kind of
demonstrated like, yeah,
for me to really accomplish what
you're trying to accomplish,
we're going to have
to do strategy.
I can't just like
guess at this stuff.
And so I have to spend
a lot of time with you.
Cool, thanks for sharing that.
You reminded me of a
lot of different things
in the timeline overview so.
So in about five
months or so, Shawn
went from not even
knowing what something
was to knowing what
it was and then
being able to charge
real significant dollars
against that.
And a lot of this is
really just here's
where I think I see
differences in personality
and let's say it's
gender based or anything,
but there are some
people who are.
I put myself in this
category who are just
smart enough to do
something and dumb enough
not to overthink it.
It's outright levels, mum.
You know, it's
like, I'm just going
to go for it because I'm
kind of dumb smart people
who too smart sit there and
overanalyze everything and die.
What is a paralysis by analysis?
And then people are dumb
or really hard working.
They just don't.
They just do everything
the hardest way
possible without really thinking
about where they're going.
Somewhere in the middle
is where you want to be.
So sometimes some of
you guys are just too
freaking smart
for your own good.
You usually go for it.
I think Kerry is.
Her background is in what is
a product patent copyright
something ridiculously
difficult to even understand.
But is it kerry?
Industrial engineering,
industrial engineering,
see, like I went
to a design school,
I barely learned how
to read, I barely
form two sentences in my face
and really just focused on
my craft and
sometimes just that.
What people would maybe
mischaracterize as cockiness
is just too stupid to
know that you can fail
and just dreaming
big, and then people
will just call that cocky.
You know, people
are like, oh, were
you afraid that you would fail?
You know, actually, I never
even thought I could fail.
Like what is failure?
I have a sandwich.
I have a roof.
I'm good.
Let's go.
OK, next person, please.
Or any questions for sean?
Otherwise, we're
going to keep going.
OK anybody else have
their story like who's
been able to sell strategy
for five thousand?
OK, jason?
Yeah Jason knight, go ahead
with the scary monster lady.
What are you doing?
Nope, unmute the scary
monster what you got.
Scary monster, light the lights
coming from underneath you.
I can see how it's it's the it's
because it's like morning here.
So the sun is reflecting.
I see.
OK next time, put a
great card down there.
I'm just saying, thank you.
Good, you're good.
Leave the light on.
It's good.
OK, go look a little
bit similar to Sean.
I've been in the group for
probably a little bit longer
than Sean, actually and
trying to kick my ass,
and the competition is fine.
Now it is.
It is a little bit different.
I was actually doing
a version of call
before I discovered the
group and it probably
took me two and a bit years
to let go of my own bullshit
and trust Chris enough
to do it his way.
And it's been it's been
a cool journey of letting
go of, you know, doing
getting the brand
attributes and the style
and talking all designer
and actually just
letting go of all that
and talking solely
about the the customer.
So not just the client,
but their customer
and the solutions
that you can bring.
And the results are
ridiculously powerful.
So I would be less about
a designer and trust
that your design
and you don't need
to talk about styles
and fonts and colors
and talk more about what are
the solutions for your clients,
what are the brand
attributes in that?
So I've been selling coal
for five k for a year
and a half or more.
I try to push it to 10
haven't really got there yet,
so we'll talk about that.
We'll talk about that.
OK, so I have a couple
of questions for you.
Thanks, Jason.
One is you said that
you had a framework
and I know because when
I first was coaching you,
you shared this thing
that looked pretty good.
It had a lot of similarities,
but I wasn't really watching
how you did it.
And so you had said very
harshly in that way.
I finally like to let go of my
own b.s., and I just moved on
and then I was able
to do it, and I'm
quite successful
at doing it now.
What pushed you to,
like, abandon something
that you believed in so
much that you probably
worked so hard to developing
to say, like, you know what,
I'm done with that I'm
ready to do the next thing.
What was the trigger point?
Just frustration of
dollar levels, not just
frustration that there
was a lead on on me.
And also I felt that what
you and others in the group
were were getting from clients
was a lot deeper than what
I could get from asking brand
attributes, you know, getting,
you know, styling
and colors and fonts.
And yeah, it was it was another
level of of transformation
that that couldn't come from
design questions, right?
Very interesting.
So the I guess the
power of the answer
really is limited by the
quality of the question.
Yeah if you're asking the
wrong kind of question,
you'll get the wrong
kinds of answers.
So most of us, most of us that
were traditionally trained as
in the graphic arts,
whether you went
to good school or bad
school, not judging anything.
We're mostly taught how to
make things craftsmanship, what
looks good next
to something else.
So then it's natural
then that when
we get out of school, when we
were running a practice that we
ask similar questions.
Does this look good against
that, is that clean?
Is that modern?
Is that luxurious?
Is that an aspirational brand?
And when we learn a
little bit about strategy,
we start to construct
our questions
around the same kinds of
things to help us make better.
But the problem is none
of the questions and none
of the training
that I was privy to.
Asked us to focus in on
the customers who are they?
What are their pain
points and challenges?
What are the jobs trying to
get done at home, at work
and how do we help them?
Because companies that
help people succeed in life
tend to be very
valuable 10 to $10.
Right so, so very good there.
And now you're getting
into this point
where you're hitting
five k all the time,
and I see that
you've transformed
yourself and your company.
Now you're trying to get
to the next level of 10k.
What has been the biggest
challenge to you there?
It's just my mindset.
It's the same old stuff.
Yeah are you getting pushback
or are you afraid to say it?
Probably both, but more,
I'm afraid to say it.
OK, now you and I had some
coaching sessions before
and asked you what
transformed your life?
You're like just because
you told me I can do it, ok?
That's what I'm
telling you right now.
10,000 to do the kinds
of things that we do,
the kinds of things that I
know you're capable of doing.
It's peanuts.
It's time, yeah,
it's time that you
graduate from the junior
of the minor leagues
and step up to the next
level, your division one now,
OK, it's time to move up.
It's time to get
that 10k and you
know, you deliver the value.
And how do you know that?
Because when you look
in your client's eyes
and you help them to realize
something fundamentally true
about a client that they'd
like to get more of?
You can't put a price on that.
And if you're not doing that.
Talk to me afterwards,
I'll tell you how to do it,
tell you where you
might be going wrong,
but I believe you're
already doing it now.
And here's the game that
we play at the office,
and I'd like for
you guys to do this.
The game that we
play at the office,
I wonder how high we can ask
for something and get it.
I want to keep pushing, so
Tina, and are at the office,
you guys call will right there.
So if you recognize
that background,
it's because he's in our office
right now in the conference
room.
I told him that Ben burns
sold strategy for 90,000.
Our previous record
was 50k look,
we don't mess around you guys,
we don't go like 55 or eight,
50 eight, we just go for it.
And a lot of this
happens to come around
like we don't care if we
get the job, we never care.
So it's just a game, a game
that has no loss and only wins.
So you guys play a
game that you think
you'll lose, it's like
I didn't get that job,
I can't lose a
job I do not have.
You need to understand that.
Yeah, you can sell
yourself short.
So Jason, there's very little
difference between five and 10.
I mean, we used to be 10 and 50.
We're talking right,
but five and 10.
It's nothing.
Go out and go, get it.
All right.
Go ask for it.
I want you to get a couple of
no's, then refine your sales
process, refine how you
talk about the work,
how you show what
it is that you do.
Tonight, I'm down for
50, then let's get to 10,
work our way towards
50, let's do it.
I like it, ok?
There should be a new
rung on the ladder.
And that's the 10k and up club.
So we're going to
keep going up there.
So as you guys are entering into
this, everybody's a white belt.
I'm not good with martial arts.
I do not know what
the next color up is.
But let's just say
when you sell five,
you're at the next
color belt yellow.
OK, so Kerry, mace, Melinda.
Jason, you guys all have
your yellow belt now.
It's time to get the
next belt. Move on up.
Make room for everybody else.
Be a trailblazer.
OK, you guys show up, you know.
What are you up to?
15, I believe.
That's why I'm camped out at
5:00, I just charged the 15.
Well, that's one
time I'm and so I've
been consistently doing five.
OK, so Sean, you
were a yellow belt
kind of dipped your
toes into the next belt,
but now you're back to yellow
because you weren't practicing
those punches and kicks like
we talked about so well now
and now, Chris, I do have
a question about that
too, because if I were to
have another client that
is the same size as
the because I know what
their their numbers were and
so right where I'm camped out
at the at our 10,000 MLP
is the one to about five
million dollar businesses.
This other company, there are
26 million dollar organization.
And so I know that there
are marketing budget
was a lot more.
They were able to afford more.
And so I just kind of
like Google search.
You know what?
What is an average
marketing spend,
how much goes to consulting,
you know, that type of thing?
And so, yeah, so I guess it
also depends on like who's
who you're talking to?
So if I get an inbound
call from somebody
and I know that they're
like a $2 million company,
I'm probably going to go
for the 10,000 discovery.
I don't know.
It's just me, though.
Let's talk about it.
This is where Sean is too smart.
See, I thought he was smart
or something like that,
but maybe he's too smart.
I don't know, because
it never occurred
to me to actually do research.
If people ask me that all
the time, like, did you
like count how many heads
they have, did you go?
No, I just got this
feeling like today
I'm going to ask for
that amount of money.
I don't really care.
Some people have
come in the door
and like crying
poverty to me, I'm
like, what does that
have to do with me?
What I do is still valuable.
Let's look at this.
You guys what is
5,000 by you today
in the marketplace like for
your from your customers
point of view, your
client's point of view.
What is 5,000 buy them?
What have they spent 5,000 on?
Well, the luncheon
that they put together
for their executive team
probably cost more than 5k.
There it goes, looking
at a new computer,
wanted to buy an imac
that cost five k.
And if you go in there
and you fundamentally
help them gain new customers
or optimize a system
or ease customer
frustration or on board
more people onto a marketing
campaign that they're running.
What's that worth to them?
Why are we so here's the
thing, I think all of us
spend too much time thinking
about what the money means
to us, what we have to do.
How much time we spend on it.
How much time we charge an hour.
Not enough of us spend
time thinking about what's
the value to the client.
And in our world, we spend
two, three, 5/10/20 1,000
on stupid things all the time.
So someone's going to do
something significant for me
and actually can
deliver on that.
I will happily part
with that money.
I told you guys before we've
hired pr firms, social media
marketing firms
and have paid them
$2,000 every single month,
three or four months go by,
I'm like, what value do we get?
I'm killing this, I'm
ending the engagement.
I've burned six to 8,000
easily just to try an idea out
to see if they can help us.
Some of them actually
do good work.
Some of them don't.
So regardless,
amount that money,
anyways, they're not
doing discovery in me,
they're not trying to help me
ease the customer pain point.
10,000 is nothing.
Will and 10 are going to spend
that on a camera body alone.
It'll be more than that.
Yeah, so it's really
nothing, you guys.
We've got to get over this fear
of what that money means to us.
I don't care if they're
a $1 million company.
Give them a $10,000 idea.
Write grant card down.
One value exceeds price.
People buy.
I want my price, so
I need to figure out
a way to make it more valuable.
The way I do that is
to help them figure out
something that's significantly
important to them, not to me.
When you can do that,
you're doing well.
Can I can I chime in?
Yes, please.
Perfect yeah.
So yeah, we've sold
strategy for 20000
now, which has been the
highest and we're constantly
so we've completely turned
it into a game, which is
fun and the exact same thing.
Can you quote this for higher?
Can we get it?
Why not?
Absolutely we were closing
quite a few of them.
One of our
frustrations was here.
We were doing all
of this work and we
were transforming businesses.
We were fundamentally like.
We had one of one of the
lines in our sales pitches
we've tripled revenues in
a single year for clients.
But the strange
thing was, and it's
something you touched
on over the years was.
You've locked yourself
into a certain you you've
made yourself a
discount provider,
you can't go back to the
watering hole and say,
hey, we've just we've
made you $40000 a month
more than you did
before or 100,000.
Let's just you can't do it.
So what we've what we've
essentially started doing is,
OK, look, we need to we need
to price ourselves accordingly.
We need to be exactly
that price and value.
You need to figure
out where that is.
The other part is was the
more questions we asked
and this is this
goes to your point
about the caliber
of the questions.
The more we poke
around, the more.
And this is maybe
the key to a lot
of this is most businesses don't
know what business they're in.
They have no idea
what they're doing.
They don't know who
their audience is.
They don't know who
their clients are.
They're doing this
because they like it.
When you start asking about
ideal clients or their position
or what certain things say.
All of a sudden they've
come to you for a website.
You understand, holy
shit, I need strategy.
I need more than I need
more than just a logo.
I need to understand how
I'm actually positioned
and what my brand is all about.
And so that's really, really
helped that sales pitch.
All right, excellent.
Excuse me.
I was searching for who's
typing here, so is it?
Is it?
Oh, I think it's Tina.
She's sitting right
beside me typing, OK,
I was like on Facebook.
I just wanted to.
I wanted to say something
to I. I think for me,
the aha moment was I
was just sick of working
so many hours on design and
doing so many iterations over
and over and over again.
It gets really overwhelming
and you kind of
feel like you don't
feel as confident.
And I find strategy
really helps.
I think you touched
on it with confidence.
It helps you feel more
confident in your decision
to why you chose the
direction you did.
And that's I mean, that's
why strategy is so important.
It's like, how are you
planning on building somebody
a brand without a strategy?
It doesn't make sense.
So it's not really an option
anymore for us to sell a logo
and sell a brand
without the strategy.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it makes perfect sense.
The the it's it's
amazing how we've
been sent to the drawing
board a number of times
back to the drawing
board by clients who have
no idea what they're doing.
They don't like it.
Yeah, and that's
not their fault.
Oh no, it's it's the blind
leading the blind like it's
it's a pun intended considering
where we're sitting,
but like it's just unless
you can have something
and you can say, look,
this is the right decision,
and here are the
reasons why this
will appear to appeal
to your target audience.
This will say the right things.
This will show off
in the right way.
This will help you charge
more for your product, service
or whatever else.
Having those
answers really helps
simplify the design decision.
Some of the
materials, everything.
That's right.
OK questions or
somebody else wants
to share their story, please.
Let me scan the page here.
Somebody else is sold
strategy for five k or more.
Brent, is that you?
Are you going to say something?
Now, OK, so you grab the
camera, look, he's ready,
he's live, guys,
he's so excited.
Jason, go ahead.
Tina, can we have a
side on belly shot?
It's big guys.
I knew this was coming.
You don't have to say
yes because somebody has.
It's almost the
size of his head.
31 weeks, we were told that
it's the size of a coconut.
Yeah, it's only
going to get bigger.
It's like an alien
side of your body.
So, yeah, OK.
Anybody? anybody else, please?
And if not, I want to open it up
for a general kind of questions
and inquiry any
kind of questions
in regards to
strategy, how we're
selling, how we're
doing it, and then we'll
move on to the next topic.
I think I have a question and
I don't know how to address it.
OK just do your best
to keep it short.
OK, so how about
trying to sell strategy
with cultural differences?
OK, now give me a little
bit more information.
What do you mean
cultural differences?
OK, so let's let's see this way.
Right so and I don't I
don't want to like sound
like I'm racist or anything.
I'm not just going to be fine.
OK because you said so,
but so so last week,
I ended up having a
prospect that was Korean.
OK, now there's all
these like stereotypes
about koreans and
all this other stuff,
and I kind of had an idea
of what was going to happen.
But I think what I'm
trying to figure out
is even though the
Korean, you know,
even though I don't
have a Korean market,
like if I wanted the Korean
market, it's either one.
Try to find out the best
way to get to the culture
or leave it alone.
And I kind of knew
where the guy was
going because I tried to mention
strategy in a sense to him,
and he just completely
blew me off and goes,
I don't care about that.
Tell me what the price is.
I'm like, oh shit.
Like, you know, and I
was trying to engage
in a way that was cordial
and also professional,
but he just wasn't
trying to have that.
So I don't know.
Well, let's talk about.
This is good.
Let's strip out the race part.
Yeah, go ahead, Adam.
No, because why do you think
it's about culture and not
just about the sales, right?
That's what I was going to say.
Let's just say like, you
have a difficult client who's
really bottom line driven.
This could be a person from
any sex, sexual orientation,
country, race,
whatever ethnicity.
It doesn't really matter.
It's just how do you deal with
a customer who is just really
price driven and
wants to dictate
the terms of the engagement?
OK, so I have some
thoughts on this.
I want to open it up, ok?
One is oftentimes
how this person
comes to you dictates their
tone and attitude towards you,
period.
So what we need to do is
to be able to be positioned
in such a way that
those kinds of people
don't even dare to call us.
Oftentimes the first
thing that happens
on a call with non-agency
clients for us,
an agency being advertising
agency is Chris,
I'm not sure we can afford you.
I've seen you do all
these really big projects.
I've seen the awards you've
won, so I may be over my league
here or out of my
league, over my head.
You see, like now they have to
come with hat in hand to say,
can we even afford this?
So now I know I'm doing my job.
Melinda's in the room,
by the way, so we'll
get to her in a second.
So how they come to you
is really important,
it's referred to you by
family friend or somebody else
that you gave a really
great discount job to.
You can kind of expect
more of the same.
And you are not that
strong to force the client
to do it your way.
You have some tricks.
You have some ways to
pivot and use leverage,
but you are not that strong.
So let's just understand that.
So let me dive in
a little bit deeper
and see if I can't
diagnose the problem, ok?
In this specific
situation, Tony,
how did this person come to you?
So a violin maker
referred him to me,
and he's a he's a violin.
He's now a violin and
violin maker as well,
but he's going into
the retail business.
So the conversation
went straight
to, you know, I was just
doing a transfer of a website
for the other guy, and
he just goes straight to,
yeah, well, so-and-so said,
you did it for, you know, 1500
can you do that?
I was like, it's a
different situation.
I don't I don't know what
the scope of work is.
You know, what are your plans?
What are you looking
at, you know,
and he's just kind of
went, well, you know,
I'm going to open a
retail store for violins
and a couple of months,
I need a website,
but I don't know where to begin.
So we just kind of had a
conversation at that point
there.
Months go by.
I don't hear back from him.
I'm not.
I wasn't looking
to really chase it.
And so when he recently
contacted me now, you know,
it was just kind
of like, and I know
that the money sounds like
peanuts is just, you know,
just kind of like something
that I was trying to offer him.
So when it came to
now, I was trying
to give them kind of like a
peace of mind kind of thing
and just trying to
give him something
of value for his business.
And he just didn't give a
shit like he just looked at me
and goes, OK, whatever,
what's the price?
I'm like, I need to
know what the scope is.
What are your plans?
What are your goals?
You know, let's kind
of take a look at it.
And this is where I yeah,
I was telling Melinda
that I used her
timeline thing and I
was trying to do that
with him, and he just
had no interest whatsoever.
So here's the problem that
I can arrange something now.
Did you talk about the range?
Maybe by saying
the range, I think
I told them it could be five
thousand, it could be more.
And he just kind of was
like, well, I need to know.
And I was like, well, we need
to discuss everything first.
You know, let's
let's lay it out.
Let's find out what your what
your situation is and OK, you
know?
And so I guess when I sent
him over the proposal,
he was just like, well, this
is just too much for me.
It's kind of like, right, right?
You've broken like 15
cardinal sins right now.
Yeah I realize that.
OK, so let's go over them.
I don't have time
to outline all 15,
but let's go through this right?
Tony asked me a really
simple question.
How do I handle
difficult clients then
with with with trying
to build brain strategy
and to make it sound simple
to them that they'll be like,
OK, let's do it.
Ok?
before I can answer that, I
want to tell you about this car
that I bought.
I was in the market
for an SUV, so I
was trying to figure you
understand where it is going.
Yes what am I not doing?
We're not talking about price.
I'm not answering you,
I'm not validating you,
I'm not doing
anything, and I think
I'm going to talk about
what I want to talk about.
I see.
You see, so when
somebody comes and asks
you a very simple question,
give them a very simple answer.
And in this case, you're
trying to close somebody.
So the first thing is, OK,
let's retrace our steps
with Carrie here,
because I wasn't sure
when you dropped
into the room, ok?
So Kerry's big lesson among
many lessons, which was
try to kill the
frickin engagement.
Just do what I tell you to do.
Don't want it.
Don't need to care.
I can't care.
Whatever go on with your life.
So if a guy comes in
charging at you really hard.
Try to kill it.
Don't chase it.
Try to kill it.
You guys are too
too busy selling.
You think you're
going to read a script
and you can outsell everybody.
That is not how this works.
Especially the come in angry.
I have a question about
this particular situation.
OK, so this so this call
is about selling strategy
as a standalone product, not
as a lumped into a logo design.
Right and so it looks like
this particular situation was
he came for a logo and we're
trying to sell him strategy
before we could give him
a price on a logo design.
Is that how that went?
You pretty much summed it up.
Yes OK.
And is that it?
Well, yeah.
And then I guess the second
follow up question then Chris,
is if someone asks you
for like, hey, what do you
guys charge for a logo?
You include strategy as part
of that and charge just,
you know, a lot of money, right?
No, no.
Let's talk about
all these things.
There's lots of ways
to handle those things.
So let me see here.
And Sean brings up a
very valid point here,
so the guys come in and ask
you something very specific.
If you don't tell him he's going
to go thermonuclear on you.
So you can't avoid or evade
this question altogether.
You can say, well,
typically I charge anywhere
between this and this,
and it depends on
if there's an e-commerce
like you should
know at this point what's
going to drive the price up
and you should be able to
articulate this to them
fairly succinctly.
Don't say I need to know your
whole life story before you
give them a price.
Don't be afraid to
say the price and get
some level of commitment.
And right now, the
way that I see it,
Tony and all of the
all you guys are
going to be a different stage
in your game, in your life.
So some of these, like I do,
I would be happy to get 1500.
Something would be thrilled
to get four thousand,
whatever the price is, right?
So I'm not judging.
So you guys, I know we're
all different price points.
Don't worry, I'm
not here to judge,
but I'm here to help
you close the job
that you're trying to get and
which I'm totally grateful for.
I'm still a baby in
this whole entire thing,
so I'm like, still
crawling and I'm not
trying to walk before
I run kind of thing.
You know what I mean?
Absolutely let's not to get too
big for our britches, right?
We get it.
So in a situation like
this, how much money
did you want to charge
for that website?
I was looking at
like at least 5,500
because he wanted
to move into OK.
OK, let's just keep dancing.
$5,500 you can
say like my prices
start around $5,500
for a website.
Does that work for you?
What would you say back, tony?
I believe that might
be out of my budget.
Is there anything that
we can do to maybe think
you or you know anything?
Is there any leeway that
we can work around that?
You know, and and I've
been watching your videos
consistently, Chris, like
with like all the stuff like,
I tried some of that stuff
and he was just, like, really
adamant about it, just
giving me very short answers.
And I think that got
him upset to a point.
OK, Tony.
Million dollar baby.
Don't go.
The Korean store
owner on me, right?
Looks, dude.
Just relax.
Take a deep breath.
I know victor has
a question and I'm
going to get to you
in a second, victor.
OK, just relax, dude.
You do realize that the advice I
give to Melinda is for Melinda.
If it helps, I know.
Awesome well, all of us are
in a different situation.
That's why a lot
of people are like,
I can't relate to
Melinda doesn't work.
So and somebody got
really upset at me
because I did a video
on how not to get abused
and not get overtime pay.
Then they felt like the
boss was going to fire them.
It's like, it's your
fault. I'm like,
no, I just gave you a scenario.
What you do with it.
It's up to you, man.
I'm not responsible.
You get it fired.
Come on.
Come on.
All right.
So look, the situation
is this. $5,500 I
want you to change your voice
in your tone and everything.
Now, a lot of times
when I do it on TV,
it sounds super
aggressive because it is.
But in real life, I
adjust to whatever's
going on the energy
in the room, right?
And I remember you
saying that what
you like to do is you kind of
like to take it down a notch,
you know, when you're
usually out of 10
on on on the internet.
I'm sorry on YouTube.
You take it down on
a 14 on the internet.
You guys have that.
I'm not like that.
I couldn't even stand myself.
I was like that.
Come on.
Let's, you know, in real
life, even what I have to say.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm going to be out of four.
I'm not here to make war.
I don't have time for that.
OK so try and say
things with a smile,
it's like, yeah, you
know what, actually?
It's $5500, and I
don't know if that's
something you can afford.
How does that sound to you?
I always want to say that, but
I don't want you to say it.
I don't know.
I just feel like someone
would punch me or something,
you know, like,
not if you smile.
You're a big dude.
I wouldn't punch you.
All right.
OK come on, man.
There's an atmosphere here.
OK, so let's get to victor.
Victor, what's up?
OK thank you, Chris.
Yeah, you're all welcome.
Theatre he had his hand raised,
I guess he lowered his hand.
Maybe it was an accident.
No, I'm sorry.
Can you hear me?
Yeah, I can hear you.
So my question is if our
goal is to sell the strategy,
how can I tell
somebody, OK, my logo?
Prices start at 5,500.
And take the
conversation from there
from giving you that prize
to ultimately guide him
to the strategy because I
don't want to do a logo.
And go back to the old habits
and being a transaction
designer, I think here we go.
You guys ready?
Everybody that has
struggles with this.
Repeat the question, Chris.
I would repeat the question
and I'll tell you the answer.
OK, so first, I'm going
to prime you guys.
Now we know the
calls are recorded,
but sometimes you know, we're
an hour and some 15 minutes
into it that you're
going to be like,
I can't find this piece again.
So let's just make sure
every 20 the 23 of you
guys get ready with
your pens and whatever
note taking device you have.
I'm going to teach
you how to do this.
All right.
The question is, OK,
so Chris, they're
coming at you with
the logo, but you
don't want to just do the logo.
You want to go and
sell the strategy.
That's the goal of this call.
So how how do you do
this even though you just
floated the number out?
You know, most of my
clients don't hit me
that hard at the beginning,
just say, yeah, what's
how much is this going to cost?
Let's just get to it right?
I have like a new York minute.
I'm ready to go.
Here's how you do it.
We've talked about
this concept before,
but we're going to do it
today until you guys have
no more questions than you
could do this in your sleep.
It's a very simple concept,
it's two words embrace.
Pivot, embrace,
pivot, embrace, pivot.
Let's talk about
the embrace part,
the embrace part is
I need to hear you,
I need to understand
you and I need
to validate what the
heck you're saying.
If I don't do that,
the pivot is no good.
If you pivot, which is
what Tony was doing,
I want to punch him in
the face and he's right
because he won't
answer my question.
I'm going to slam the
frickin phone down and be
done with him.
And that's no way to begin
a conversation or dialogue
with a prospective client.
The embrace.
What do you charge for a logo?
You know, I charge somewhere
between five to 8,000.
Is that something that's
going to work for you?
Well, that's kind of pricey,
but I think I can swing that.
OK, so I've already embraced
the ask me very simple question.
Here's what I say.
I said, you know what?
I'll be happy to make you a logo
for five to 8,000 all day long.
But here's the thing.
Why are we doing this
in the first place?
What's motivating you to need
a new logo because it could
be that you don't
need a new logo at all
and as glad as I am,
or I'd be happy to take
the money from you.
I want to make sure
that you're going
to get a result that's helpful
to you and your business.
So what's motivating this?
Hence, the pivot.
Better understand that.
I don't want to go on
until you guys master
this thing because it's such a
simple concept on the surface.
But so poorly executed
by some of you guys.
Now, some of you
guys have children.
A win's dinner, or are we
there yet, are we there yet?
Are we there yet until
you answer that question?
It's going to keep coming up.
Tell me, how much is the logo?
How much is the website,
how much is the website?
And at a certain
point, I'm going
to reach 10 and just explode.
OK you do understand that we
must embrace first, whatever
the challenge the question is.
Embrace you're
not that powerful.
You're not that slippery.
You're not a ninja.
You're not a master negotiator.
Yet embrace.
So once we get that part,
embrace like wholeheartedly,
I hear you, I feel you.
I appreciate it.
Thank you very much.
But before we do
that, this is the part
that makes them question
everything and the way
you phrases and how you
deliver this is very important.
Before we do that, I have
to ask you this question.
Why do you feel like
you need this done?
And then you do what Trump does,
which is this is classic guys,
there is a Greek term,
I don't know the term.
I forgot it, but
I heard it on NPR.
A way of debating about saying
something without saying it.
And Trump is masterful
at saying this.
Like, I would never call
you like to Kim Jong un.
I would never call
him fat and lazy.
But you just call
them fat and lazy.
So it's this rhetoric
device that you use.
You say, like, you know what?
Here's what it costs.
I'd love to do it.
Make me really happy, but
against my own self-interest,
I actually may want to talk
to you out of doing this
because it might not be
good for your company.
So in that moment, I'm
demonstrating something
that few of you guys are
actually doing well, which is I
hold your business and your
money higher than my own needs
as a business owner.
I'm going to put you
above my own needs.
Literally I'm going to do it.
Because it could turn
out that you just
need to hire some kid off fiber.
It might turn out that you
don't need this at all,
and all is good and
it's just in your mind.
And why is this so
important for you
guys not only to do
strategy, but to sell
it is because once you do that,
you will have been transformed.
Your entire client
dynamic and what
you can charge them
after this point
will have transformed as well.
It's that simple and is why I
can't emphasize this enough.
We'll get Melinda in a
second to testify to this,
but you guys understand.
Embrace pivot.
Who here doesn't understand
who wants more definition
or examples or
something that they're
experiencing that they're like?
I don't know how to say it based
on my own life experiences.
Anybody, please.
I won't attack you, I promise.
We good know someone
wants to say something,
I heard somebody
on meet themselves.
Go ahead, Henry.
Henry, what's up, man?
So one of the things
that we were going like,
we need more data.
We can't go any further
because I need data showing me
that your result.
Your solution goes
with what we've talked about.
But how do you embrace them?
Do you actually like
that creative director?
OK, sorry, I didn't
have context.
I thought you were
asking me a question.
OK so creative director
saying we need more data.
We need more data in order
to back this information up.
What is this information?
I have no context.
So who are the people who
are coming to the facilities?
What are the age ranges?
Oh, OK, OK.
Are they coming here?
Got it.
So that type of
information, even
though you've done the personas
and all those things with them?
Yeah, yeah.
OK, so more information this
will set up, perhaps to fail.
What I would do is prior
to doing the discovery
meeting with them,
I would say we
need to have people
who are going to know
about who our customers are.
So they need to be kind
of on the front line.
It can't all be
executives wearing suits.
Who who in our organization
has actual experience touching.
Talking to and dealing
with the customers who's
really close to
them, probably people
in customer service,
people that are just brand
new to the company
working on the line.
That's what we need to
have in this meeting.
And they need to
supply those people.
Now there's another
way to do this.
What you can say is
we can do research
to validate or invalidate what
we discovered in this meeting.
For that, I need to charge
you another x dollars
and we'll hire a research firm
to see if this is true or not.
Without work for you.
Yeah so what research firms
or do you know of again, usc?
Most universities have
a research department,
you just need to know
someone inside who
can get you on the fast
track so you can say, look,
I want to know what women
of this race between this
and this age spend
their free time doing.
They have expert
researchers to do this.
It's fairly affordable, like
we're talking about thousands
of dollars, not
'10s of thousands.
They're professional
professional researchers there,
so maybe you don't
have access to USC.
Find one near your
your town where
you live and you're in Toronto.
I'm in Arkansas.
Oh, that's right.
Yeah, you're up there.
You throw me up there.
So you just find the
nearest university
that's got a good
research center
and figure out who's
doing it there.
They have the resources.
OK, so that's it,
that's kind of how
you answer that basically,
you try your best to answer
the question.
I'm not pivoting on that one.
All right.
Let's see here.
Melinda, you're in
the room, right?
Melinda, I saw her
in a second ago.
Whereas the second page.
I can't find her now.
She left, she bounced
in and bounced out.
She knew she was going to be
on it and she was too scared.
Don't be scared.
All right.
OK who is like?
Adam, what are you
going to say something?
I have a general question.
Go ahead.
Do you think coal is
the right framework
to also do for starting
business, which is basically
stealing in some concept phase,
or only better to do when
we have some data to go with?
Ok?
you're talking about new
businesses, startups and is.
How do you profile customers
when you don't even
know who your customers are?
That's a common
question that comes up.
Now, granted, I
don't work with a lot
of startups and the reason
why because they're broke.
But other than that, I have been
able to work with entrepreneurs
who are launching
their own business,
and I ask them the same question
and they give me puzzled.
Looks like we're
just starting out.
Chris, how do we
know this so well?
Let's look around.
Let's look at adjacent
business or a competitor.
Businesses compete with
somebody that's existing, right?
So airbnb, before
they were airbnb,
was competing with Hilton or
Hyatt or local mom and pop
kind of bread and breakfast.
So they needed to know
who their customers were.
A customer exists out there,
you just need to identify them.
Whether you have them today
or not is not that important.
It's who you want
to get and there you
can gain a lot of insight.
So when I did this
exercise for my friend.
Who was trying to consult
for a fast casual restaurant?
I said, well, here's my
observations for the same price
point.
Here are five or
six people near you.
Here's who they're afraid of.
And let's let's look
at their customers.
And from that, we
can understand a lot
about why one customer
chooses one fast casual place
over another.
That's how I do it.
So you guys need to
understand that core really
is about the way even
Josie describes it,
it's a kind of more
of a philosophy
than a specific toolset.
The philosophy is to help
you understand that you need
to know who the customers are.
There's many ways to
get there, and once you
realize that fundamental
truth about this philosophy,
there are more.
That you can adapt and change
it to your specific needs.
That's how I've used it.
OK anybody else?
Hey, Chris.
Yes, fire away, man.
Different versions
of call her claim.
I do customize, call for,
say, a personal profile
versus like a corporate
or a department corporate.
Mm-hmm I think you do
need to customize it even
for corporations, and I
tweak it here and there.
Now, I've not run core
for a personal brand
yet because very
few personal brands
can afford the high ticket
price of getting in right.
But somebody did ask
this in the pro group.
Can you run core
for personal brands?
Absolutely and I believe
we've done some episodes
on personal branding already.
So you might look
into events and switch
to filter to past
events and look
for anything that's just
personal or branding
in there, ok?
Search through that, you'll
be able to find some things,
but ultimately the brand
attributes that that works
sometimes personal brands.
I guess they have customers to.
It's just a little
bit different.
More or less, I think
it could work and use.
You kind of tweak
it a little bit.
So I'm interested in
the different approaches
that you might take,
say for like, we
have a global company
that we work with
and they have lots of
different departments.
OK we treat each one
of those departments
as its own little
entity and treat
the head of that
department as the CEO,
and it's its a little brand.
That's interesting.
Now is the company
so big that actually
have a lot of different
sub brands or you just
want to treat each person
a little bit different?
So the marketing department do
a lot of events, for example,
and each event has
its own sort of brand,
but there's the global brand.
So sometimes we find
a little conflict.
You know, it's it's already
they have their values,
they have their proposition.
But this event is actually a
very different sort of market.
Therefore, can we
offer strategy?
I'm just wondering if everyone's
been through that process
before.
OK, so I'll open it
up for anybody that's
been through a similar
process and get
their their point of view on
this and then I'll weigh in.
Although I don't have that
exact same experience, but I do
have an opinion about it.
Anybody works.
Go ahead, Gary.
I was going to say I have.
I have worked with
personal brands that
have different, maybe not
different departments,
but like services and products.
And I run core on each one
because usually the service
or the product
that they're doing
is hitting a
different pain point.
And the customers
might be the same,
but they're they're solving
a different problem.
So my short answer is yes, you
can run or on the same company
with subsections.
And do you find you have
to do a bit of a refresher
on the the global brand so they
understand from this to this?
Or do you just treat them?
Yeah, a quick one.
But normally I treat it as if
I'm running all over again.
OK OK, now I have
an answer as well.
One of our clients is a
big real estate developer
and they have
different properties.
Each property has a different
brand and a brand voice.
But generally speaking, the
customers who they sell to
are the same
because they have, I
guess, what they
call aaa buildings
or an a-class building, which
is a certain description
about the level of quality
of the building itself.
So they will tell me, Chris,
they're the same customers.
You don't have to do that again.
I get paid the exact
same amount of money.
I'm not in the
business of wanting
to repeat what I've done
just because I feel like it.
I'd rather get paid the
same amount and do less.
So this is wonderful so I can
use that time for something
else, more productive
or helpful to them.
So we'll pull out
the old profiles.
We'll say, OK, here's who
we know profile one and two.
This is still ring
true, and if we do,
if we if it doesn't modify it.
So one time we took the same
profiles, we flew to Seattle
and they're like, oh,
the Seattle market
is very different.
L.a. is about flash
and cash here.
It's really stripped
down down to earth.
If you came here, they
will laugh you out
of town with that
same kind of vibe.
So they profiled something
slightly different
and so we keep building on it.
One of the dangers, though, is
that if it's in a company that
it doesn't actually have
true subbrands meaning like
Coca-Cola and nestl�� to own
so many different companies,
right?
Those definitely need their
own brand, brand voice
and have different
customer types,
but when it's one company
and there's different needs
and objectives, it
feels like we're helping
them to silo themselves.
Right, so the events
or marketing team
does something
different, and the CEO
does something different.
And we're only creating
greater division versus trying
to bring people together.
So what we should
try to do is do
something that covers
the whole brand
and that shouldn't change.
But the users might
be different and we're
going to keep building on that.
So over time, you might
build six or seven
or 10 different profiles of the
different kinds of customers
that they serve us.
And you'll start to realize
some of them do overlap
and you can eliminate them.
But now, depending on
which meeting you have,
you can be very
proactive and say, it
seems to me before starting that
these are the three most likely
profiles.
Let me read them off
to you really quickly,
and we can modify or
we can keep them as is.
Let's save time.
The brand is not
going to change.
Now let's come up with ideas
based on what your needs are.
Is that ok?
Francis?
cool.
All right, Jason.
Yeah, I I went for it's actually
where where Cole came from,
for me, probably about eight
years ago wasn't necessarily it
was a big company, lots
of different brands.
I pretty much made a
spreadsheet, pretty spreadsheet
with all the different brands
and how each of these brands
differed.
You know that one tone
of voice, one law who
is the position
and the sales guys
were blown away
that were just like,
oh my goodness, this is the
best document we've ever seen.
Because straight
away, they could
see why they would go with
one brand over another brand
to one of their clients.
And I thought directly that
the same is your answer.
But in one sort
of a trade shape,
having the 15 different
brands of that company
and who and why and
where they loved it.
So maybe that helped.
Great all right.
Any other questions about the
selling strategy breakthroughs
and then ask you
guys a question.
Any other questions about this?
Please, you know, if you can't
feel safe, yeah, go ahead.
So, Brandon.
Sort of.
Can you hear me?
Yeah, I can hear you.
Go ahead.
I'm curious, but you're
really low, though.
Can you turn your mike
up higher or something?
Is there an option there?
Let's try here.
How about that?
It's a little bit better.
Yeah curious how everyone
is delivering strategy
after a court is completed.
What documentation
are you providing?
How is that provided?
Myself, I designed
a package that's
that feels like a premium
product that I hand over.
OK that's interesting.
OK in case you guys couldn't
hear, Brandon, he asked,
how do you guys
document your discovery?
And he himself builds
out a premium product
that he hands over.
That sounds super
fancy schmancy.
Ok?
I think it's going to arrange.
The answer could be as varied
as there are a number of people
in this group.
Some people literally
use the same framework
and just pass it
over, which is me.
And I'll be totally
honest with you guys.
I feel a little lazy.
I also feel like the
harder or the more design
I make it, the
less I'm validating
the ideas as to being
what's most important.
And if you want to do go
like Mr. Mr. confident,
I would hand over
a word document.
Like 12 point type helvetica,
regular normal spacing,
because it's the words the
ideas that we uncovered that
are truly valuable.
Having said that,
though, clients
like some things that look nice.
So recently, when I was doing
a strategy with Ben and Matt,
they overhauled
the entire design
to make it look
super snappy, nice,
and the designer
does appreciate that.
But the rebel means
like, I don't care.
Here's my ideas, not my ideas.
Here's what we talked about
that's important to you.
So the summary, the insights
are what's important.
So here's here's a
quick test for you guys.
If you're doing
discovery correctly,
whether you use
your own framework
or core or some version that
you figure it out on your own
is if the first page that you
include in that after the title
page has a summary of
insights that are valuable,
then you know you've
done your job.
That's critical, because
sometimes I'd ask Matt and Ben,
like, where's the
summary insights?
They're like, what?
What do you talk about?
So you mean that you went
through this whole thing
and you can't tell me anything
that you learn that's new.
That's significant
to the client.
scrape harder.
Or you didn't do your job.
You're supposed to
discover something
and you should be
able to write it.
And it could be
contained on one page
because it's not
like you're going
to uncover like 55 different
things it's going to be.
Here are the three big
things that we learned.
Here's two or three more
kind of supporting things.
And now we can we can
build towards that.
OK so if you do a nice,
significant luxury item,
good thing.
I don't think anybody's
going to hate you for it.
It's just a lot of
extra work to me.
And if you do it and you do a
good job, it makes you happy.
Go ahead and do it.
Are you talking about like
you're like carving it out
in stone, you hand
him like a slab
of like lands on their desk?
No, that is just designed to
fill out the Maslow's hierarchy
of needs.
I've added that to core and.
Uh, just it's just
a spiral bound,
but it's not a
special paper, it's
oh, it's like printed and
bound and nice looking.
Yes you care a lot more than me.
Good for you.
Mind the digital PDF that I
barely put any effort into,
except for the words
that are on the page.
So like I said, it's going
to run the spectrum, right?
So how much do you charge
to do that, brandon?
Right now, I've
just started core.
OK, so, so still free.
Yeah OK, good.
You see?
Yeah no, I wasn't
going to use that word.
He pulls up in a Corvette.
I'm like in a Toyota.
No, that's cool.
That's good.
Because whatever it gives
you confidence and makes
you appear more
professional than you really
believe yourself to be great.
Right?
I remember when I went
to art center, the best
instructor I've ever
had at art center,
walked in with black
sweatpants that looked old,
like he picked them up
at target or something
with white sneakers.
And that's how he looked.
So now he's like
saying, if you judge me
on my words and
the ideas and how
I teach while other teachers
came in like with a nice suit
and dressed really well, I'm
saying if you have great words
and you dress nice, you know,
if you dress really well, then.
Excellent so right
now, I'm just kind of
in the judgment on my
words kind of thing.
But that's not to say
that making it look good
is going to make
it seem like you
don't know what you're talking
about, so you could do both.
OK, here's my big
question for you guys.
Unless somebody else
wants to come at me here,
we've only got
like 10 20 minutes
left here before after bounce.
The big question
is, what's it going
to take you to get from where
you're at into the 5,000 club?
Something is holding you back.
So the thing that I
can think of for myself
is once I saw something,
I just wanted that thing.
I just went for it.
But obviously, we
don't all operate
with that same operating system.
So what is it that's
holding you back like?
Why did it take Kerry two years?
Why did it take
anybody in this group?
Fill in the blank.
Time to do it.
I'm telling you, you
just have to do it.
But why you don't do it at
that part, I cannot understand.
So help me understand
why you just don't do it.
What's holding you back?
There is a general fear of
change, not just of failure,
but even if I succeed in this,
I don't know what to expect.
So there is a feeling
that, isn't it?
What?
that's the beauty of
life, what if you woke up
one day when you're
three years old
and you knew exactly the
life you were going to live,
who you're going
to marry, the car,
that you're going to drive
the number of kids and dogs
you're going to have?
There's no there's no fun.
I'm not saying it makes
sense, but it just.
But it's just
something you might not
have thought of yourself.
OK OK, OK.
All right.
Let's think about this.
You're saying that
you may have a point,
but I'm still illogical
and emotional,
and so I'm going to just
keep that in my heart.
No, it takes.
It takes some time
to release that.
How much time do you want?
Let go?
I don't know.
I let you know when I get.
You know, Adam, you remind me of
my friend, my very good friend.
He's taiwanese, but there's a
spirit and an energy about you
that I like.
OK, well, OK, you want
yourself to have time.
So this is the thing is like.
And I've said this to you
guys before, you know,
we're all dying.
The minute you were
born, you're dying.
You have a limited a limited
amount of time left on Earth.
I went to a meeting, I actually
didn't go to a meeting.
I went to see my
dentist the other day.
My my three times
annual checkup.
And some woman almost
t-boned me like,
you know, t-bone, like
I'm driving straight
and they have a stop
sign, but they don't stop
and they go right
into the intersection.
I can see it.
And it was kind of like slow
motion, like going to hit me.
I turn a little bit.
I was thinking, Oh
man, in my mind is just
like 1,000 thoughts
like, I'm going
to be late for my
dentist appointment.
I have a live
stream later today.
This is going to
totally F up everything.
I wasn't necessarily thinking,
I'm going to die today,
but that is a very
real possibility.
So if you guys just
imagine that there's
some person who's texting,
texting and driving
right now looking for your car.
Maybe today will
be the day you act
and not tomorrow,
because tomorrow your jaw
could be wired shut.
You know.
You could be in a wheelchair
for the rest of your life
and you've got other
bigger problems to solve.
Today's the day it
took, Kerry, two years,
I'm basically yelling and
screaming at her now saying,
if you don't do this, I'm never
going to talk to you again.
That's kind of like
what it takes sometimes.
Today's the day, you
guys, I promise you,
it's all milk and honey
on the other side,
you just got to go for it.
And if you're
lactose intolerance,
almond milk and honey.
You can do this.
This is supposed to be
a group of 180 winners.
Come on, you guys can do it.
Anybody else want to share so
openly and honestly, jason?
I'm just making up for being
two years of silence here,
so I've got a quick question
related to selling it,
so just recently had two
meetings with two new clients
or were referrals,
they wanted to get
an understanding of what
essentially core was about
presented.
It showed them some
case studies gave
them, gave them some referral
agents like, hey, talk to xy z,
and they both come back
saying, look, it was amazing.
Leave it with us to digest.
When do I go back
with debt or what?
What's the next stage,
do I find I follow yet?
Well, how much do you think?
Interesting, very,
very interesting.
So Jason is saying that
he's done his sales process
and now there's
time in between now.
Most of the time,
you guys, I want
to know if it's going to happen
or not in the first call.
So a lot of you guys are
kind of making what I think
is a one call setup to
like multiple calls.
And so this is territory I
don't have a ton of experience
with because I pretty
much know right
away at the very beginning.
Now here's how I'm doing it.
I'm telling them they
shouldn't work with me,
that they can't afford it,
that they don't need this
and that they should be content
working with some second tier
designer.
And the better job I do
that, the harder they dig in
to say to me, I can't afford it.
I do need this and
you are the best.
So you guys actually
need to practice
some of this trying to kill
the engagement three times.
Right because if you sell.
Then they feel like you're
chasing, and if you don't sell,
they feel like
they're chasing you.
It's much better to be chased.
It's much better
to feel like you
have that long line of people
waiting in front of your door.
So Jason, and your
example here, it's like.
You know what, tell me what
your top three objections
are in terms of who
you're going to work with.
And that direct with them.
Price quality of the work.
Your expertise in
this marketplace,
let's say those are
the three things.
Right?
so price, you're going
to say, well, my price
is between this and this, and if
that's not within your budget,
I don't want to waste
any more of your time.
And is that price just
the starting price?
You know, the inside now,
the tank price rather than?
Or is it a good question?
OK all right.
I just say strategy price
and I tell them this
is just for me to do discovery.
This has no deliverables.
If you want to do
identity design,
that's K. If you want to
do this, it's Fifty Shades.
This and that, you just.
But I just let them know
that's where we start,
and that's a great way to
test their financial appetite
for what it is that
you need to do.
Yeah can you feel
confident just saying
that like, yeah, I
typically do strategy
and help you learn
about your customers
what their wants in the
pain points of challenges
are because I find that
everything else we do,
if we don't
understand that it has
a very low chance of
actually succeeding
Like we could get lucky.
But I'm not a gambler.
Ah, you know, ok?
So for that, I charge somewhere
between 5,000 and 10,000.
And that's going to cost
exclusively deliverables.
Now you can hire whoever you
want to make your deliverables,
but if you should want me
to do it, I can do it too.
And this ranges of
prices I can talk about.
Does this fit
within your budget?
Yeah, I'll do that.
Yeah, I did a softer
approach to that.
And as a result, I
got a softer answer.
So yeah, cool, cool.
So here's the thing, you guys,
when you go on these calls,
you know what the objective is.
The objective is to know whether
they're a good fit for you
or not, if they can
afford you or not.
So let's not beat
around the bush.
Doesn't go right for it.
Oh, how many
competitors, I mean,
how many people are you going
to call to do this thing?
Oh, three, OK, so what number
am I just to be honest about it?
Yeah, I want to give you guys
the courage to speak your mind.
This is the key.
People will say, wow, that
was a fresh breath of air.
A designer who doesn't sit
there and talk to me about fonts
and colors, does
it make me feel out
of fricking brand questionnaire
and really just says it
the way it is?
I like this person
or I don't like them.
I'm moving on and
you're just better
off not working with them.
It's that simple.
So that caller, there
actually two face
to face meetings for those
meetings have happened.
It's now spend a
little bit of time.
Would you chase them up?
I just.
At this point, I mean, just to
follow down your rabbit hole,
it's just to say to them,
yeah, I yeah, where are you at?
I just want to follow up.
Are we good to go?
What's what's holding you
back from making a decision
to move forward now?
You know, I have to
be harder, not soft.
Yeah, OK.
And if I don't
hear from you, I'll
try one more time and then I'm
moving on or whatever it is.
Do you want to say, say it?
Nice to you or not, but
yeah, but communicate
the same intent?
Yeah, cool.
That's good.
Thank you.
Now I had a conversation
with a gentleman today,
and he went from doing $50,000
in one year, $50,000 gross
to $1.4 million.
The next year.
And he's a creative.
So I was like, dude,
what are you doing?
Maybe I need to learn from you.
You know, he did.
He just sent out a bunch
of fucking emails saying,
is everything going on in
here and help you with?
And just went from
one thing to next.
And I see you're at
this company now.
What's going on?
Is there anything
can help you with?
And he just pounded
out the emails.
He got work, he did the
thing that nobody here
wants to do, like
cold or warm emails.
Sat down just did it, and
he said they hired me.
And he's in a groove.
He's getting work.
So you guys are needing
more leads, some of you guys
just might just need to sit down
and just pound out some emails,
see what's going on?
Ok?
obviously, it has to be
based on relationships.
You have otherwise people
like, who the hell are you?
But you can easily
go down that list,
so here's a 60 people
I need to email
and just sit down and
write them all in email.
OK, let's talk.
I don't want to start
a new can of worms
here because I feel like
I'm going to go over
and I'm already
exhausted as it is.
So I want to ask you
guys a quick question.
Do we need to segment
the pro group?
Some people are
feeling like there
needs to be a new group and
a veteran group, but then
how does one decide
what the groups are
and what value there
is to each group?
I'm opening it up to have
a discussion about this.
What I need to know is
how do we segment groups?
And will people
belong to both groups?
Because then that's just
double the work for me.
Any idea, as you guys?
Keep everyone in the one group.
That's what Francis thing.
OK hi, this is Kerry.
Oh, right.
I like the segmented.
I'm in a group, right, a
program right now that it runs.
I think it's like 12 weeks.
And then once it's over, which
you don't have to do that,
but once it's over, you can.
And if you hit your goals, then
you move into the next group
and you're not part of that.
It's the first group
is called foundations
and the second group
is called leverage.
So you do all the initial
stuff, you meet your goals
and then you move into
the leverage group,
but you're not part of both.
But it's different skill sets.
It's kind of taking
it to the next level.
And I have to say that.
I, for me, getting to that
next group is kind of a goal
because it feels
kind of exclusive
and, you know, maybe like
a mindset thing as well.
It's like another goal to reach.
Good OK.
Thanks for your feedback.
I have Melinda's feedback here.
Even though she's
not on a call, she
wrote some things I want to
share with you, anybody else?
My vote is to keep it sort of
as one group for the time being.
But I can see the
advantage for some
of the more advanced or elite
individuals such as like Butler
branding and marketing and
stuff like that carrying in,
as well as actually who are in
a significantly different snack
bracket than some
of us and whatnot.
So I can understand how they
would find a lot more value
in that situation.
But then again, they also
may have the resources
to consider coaching calls
with you personally directly,
whereas some of us may not.
Right?
good point.
Perhaps the value in
the Pro group as it were
may not be as much
for them anymore,
but for us that are going
to get to that point.
Right?
anybody else?
I have say.
OK, victor, and then somebody
else, I heard two voices.
Go ahead, Victor.
Yeah, so Jason
Kerry's response, so.
And also based on
the conversation
we've been having here, I mean,
is there anything different
than the, if you will, the
people that already hit by k
will do other than
asking for the.
Extra K or extra 20k?
That then it makes
sense for them
to be segmented to a
different category.
Yeah I don't know.
I don't know, but they're
all good questions.
Victor, thank you very much.
So I think.
What some people are feeling
is when new people come in,
they're asking the
questions that have already
been answered many times over.
So I think they're just
trying to say, look,
if we can somehow segment those
people into a different group,
then the people who are already
through that initial period
onboarding period can then just
focus on things so that we're
not repeating ourselves.
That's the problem.
So that the most
obvious delineation
that I can see, but
let's just John, who
also had a question or comment.
It is, Henry.
Go ahead.
If you segment the group,
something I can think about
is going to take
who's going to answer
the questions for the new people
who so maybe having people that
can answer some of the questions
or having some type of document
that will take you?
I know that we've
already done some stuff
where stuff is laid out, like
if you're starting here, do xyz.
But I'm just thinking
about how do we not
add more work to you in the
work that you already have?
Right?
because I don't want
more work either.
So we'll figure out
the tactics part
once we figure out what's the
best thing for the group moving
forward.
And to be honest,
right now, some of you
guys are not at where we can
charge 5K and some of you guys
are contemplating charging K. To
me, it's all the same, really.
I mean, until you start getting
into significant numbers,
when you guys start
charging more than us,
then I know we have
a real problem.
So my goal was always to
keep that bar really high,
so it feels a little out of
reach so that I make room
for more people to fill in.
OK but OK, let's just
keep thinking about that.
Anybody else, adam?
Generally, what I see is
the problem for mothers
and I can feel it myself
is that sometimes it
feels too much as
a safe place and it
needs not to be as much safe.
So to push people.
No so how is it
being a safe place
and how do we push people?
OK, so that's what I'm not
sure about, but there is no,
but I'm I love it.
No, there is really a
lot of hand-holding.
Yes, so maybe.
It should be a bit
of more butt kicking.
Do you want me to give you
what I've been giving, kerry?
You do not want that.
No, but I'm saying about
the somewhere in the middle,
you know, not to go, not to go.
No, not to go.
No, because not to go to
too much of a safe place
where it's just about
raising our problems
and then feeling better
because I said it later.
I see what you're saying.
We don't want this to
be a pity party where
you go, oh, woe is me.
Oh, poor you.
You didn't, you know,
bad client, you're right.
But you also, I
guess you don't want
to get whipped by
the coat hanger.
That's probably too hard for
you to somewhere in the middle.
I get it.
See all the Asian
people like, oh, you're
just too close to home, ok?
I get it.
All right, guys.
Look, here's what Melinda
is talking about right now.
She's calling this the pro group
cohorts, which basically it's
kind of like a
self-study subgroup.
So basically, she's
thinking maybe
like it's for weeks and
cohorts of a specific topic.
Based on the
protocol curriculum,
you limit the number of
people in each cohort,
and it's led by one mentor from
the group and use the outlined
the structure that we've
already established.
Use zoom, watch relevant
videos, discuss, apply,
get feedback with each other.
So that there's a clear action
item and accountability.
This sounds exciting to me.
So you want to be able
to leave with something
and feel accomplished and then
we can build testimonials.
So some of the
topics that she said,
like biz dev, Legion
onboarding discovery,
project management
deliverables how to get 0
to 5 k strategy sprint.
Building your businesses,
infrastructure, processes
and systems, building the team,
so each one of these cohorts
has a very specific
goal at the end.
Mentors can volunteer,
maybe over time we pay them,
I don't know, and that's
it, so she's like,
maybe we can test that on one
hop topic and see how it goes.
Now, Melinda, still
not in the room, right?
I don't think she's in the room.
We had a wonderful time chatting
for the next episode with her.
But you know, so here's
the weird thing like I ask
everybody, why are they stuck?
And she very flippantly
and defiantly say said.
Am I stuck?
Who told you I was stuck,
stuck as a mindset?
I never want to be stuck and
I'll give it to this girl.
I met her on the internet, you
guys, and it's kind of crazy.
This is like a
match.com moment, right?
I met her on the internet.
I'm like, you kind
of seem like you're
willing to do whatever
amount of work is needed.
And I think that's
the thing, like I
think I know how
to spot winners,
and so when I'm picking
people to become
a part of the coaching,
mentoring that I give,
I try and align myself with
people who are going to win.
You know, the odd
thing, too, is Rebecca.
I picked as well
Rebecca heineman, who
is also in the group
because she was super
aggressive about saying,
hey, don't leave the moms out
of the equation.
We're a big part of
your market, too.
So she made a really
strong case for herself,
and granted, I have not
coached her very much,
but it seems like
she's doing OK.
She's like looking
to hire people,
people in the Pro group, even.
So I think the one connective
thread that I'm hearing here
is there are people who
think and then there
are people who do, I would
prefer that you guys are
part of the latter group.
Stop thinking so much.
Try it.
The worst that can
happen is you'll
be exactly where
you're at right now.
And the best you
don't even know what
the best is because the
best could blow your mind.
It really can, guys, so if we
can say to each other right
now, the next call take.
You try to kill that thing.
You try to make it sound
like they can't afford you
and you just go through
that and you stop caring.
It's kind of ironic that
Kerry's name is Kirra.
It should be not
Kerry not caring.
But there she is.
All right.
Thanks for the air drums.
I appreciate it.
I'm here all night, you guys.
Actually, I'm about
to wrap up, so I
hope you guys got
your money's worth.
All right.
So here's the deal, guys.
I think this is my last
call for a little while
because next week I'm
going to be in Yosemite,
and I don't think I have any
mental capacity between now
and when I emerge
from the craziness,
I have several workshops.
A total of 12, some
lectures, some workshops,
and it's going to
be madness for me.
So I'm going to get
some of the other guys
to step up and run the
protocols for me while I'm away.
I think you guys seem to be
more engaged when it's not me,
so I'll give you guys a
break from my ugly face
and maybe we'll get Matt, Ben
and Melinda and anybody else
to step up and do
some calls with us.
OK and just like
you guys now, so
stay tuned for the next
event, and some of you guys
have signed up for Joshua tree,
if you're in the United States
and you want to meet us
in the desert, that's
going to be amazing.
Ok? and I hope at
some point I will be
able to do some make up calls.
We're off schedule.
We can talk about some
of the things that
make you stop like fear.
Do you want to dive
deep into that?
But I think those calls
will be much shorter.
We'll do them like 45 minutes.
One for each specific thing
that you guys are having trouble
with, like procrastination
or goal setting or something
like that.
OK, that's it for me.
I got to run.
It was good talking
to you guys, and I
hope you guys catch us on
the live stream tomorrow
and on Friday.
But other than that, I'm going
to disappear for a little bit.
OK, I'm going to
Europe, you guys.
I don't know if you know, but.
OK, take care, guys.
Goodbye see you
on the other side.