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Messaging With Jared Kessler

#
38
Chris Do
Published
March 6, 2017

Chris Do leads a keynote on how to write more customer-centric copy.

Read Transcript
OK welcome to the future group episode 38. And in this week, we're going to talk about copywriting and you guys said, how do I write more customer centric copy? And I think there's some email questions there as well. Now, Jared may or may not like the next slide, but here we go. It's going to be running this. I was like, who's this cool cat? Where is this guy? Oh my, you know, I had to scrape, dude, I had to scrape, and I'm going to talk to you. Just a slight detour, you guys. I want you guys all to try this sometime. Type in your name in Google and see what comes up right? I wrote in Jared Kessler, somebody very famous named Jared Kessler. It's not you. And then I had to write in Jared Kessler copywriting and then you came up. But there are no good pictures of you on the internet. That tells me, you know, if I know Tina is in the room and if Tina were here and she's connected, she's like, you know, your CEO games off do your game is awesome. And I really have to talk to her. We meant to connect. Yes, Marco is off, and I really because I usually get a number of inquiries per month. And it's really dropped down these last few months. So yeah, but that's awesome. That's that man. Holy crap. Yeah, I got this picture on Facebook because I was going to text you and I was thinking, no, I'm going to be resourceful. I'm just going to limit myself and see what I can find. And I had to like, look like a squirrel. And then kind of like, you know what? I bet he has a couple of pictures on Facebook, and I hope they're not all with him partying on the beach or something. That's awesome. That's cool. Found this one? Yeah, no. That's cool, man. Because that's like when I first started copywriting. So, yeah, it's a good look, man. It looks like you're in a band. You're like blowing smoke out and we're not seeing the cigarette. My first website was the kick ass copywriter, so there was all that kind of stuff in there. And you know where the copy matched the visuals and all that kind of stuff. So that's kind of funny. Excellent So I just want to say this. First of all, I really appreciate you stepping up. You guys asked for topics. And of course, I'm not always the expert at every topic you guys bring up. And so our community is so diverse and rich with talent and people in different fields. And I love that you guys just step up so fast. So, Jared, it's like, you know what? I can do this and you're qualified to do so. How do I know your qualify? I looked on your LinkedIn profile, and here we go. LinkedIn senior copywriter and creative problem solver he's been doing this for at least nine years, is an independent contractor and consultant. He's worked with a number of different clients. As far as I can tell with the direct resource group, the hacker agency Wunderman in Seattle, a Jones advertising goes on and on. I couldn't fit it on one page. I'm like, that's enough, but I can keep this picture up for another slide at least, right? Thanks, man. OK and if you go to his website here, here's his website. Are you standing out from the noise or just adding to it? And that's a theme that runs out through his copy. OK, so here he is. Hi, I'm Jared. That's his website. If you want to look them up, it's Jared Kessler Creative. I encourage you to check it out. Ok? he's got a video on it. But one of the issues I had with this site was the images were locked into the background, so I couldn't drag these things down. And I'm not sophisticated enough on how to go into the source file source code. I mean, I'm sure that the 10 developers are on this call like, dude, you're kidding me. Of course, you can do that. Man, that's awesome. No, that's great. Because, you know, I've been really, you know, and this isn't a call out to people in the group. But as you know, I've been having a really difficult time with trying to update stuff because this is who I was four years ago. So we talked about this. You talked about a lot of times like, yes, totally. We're scaling up as you scaling up and you have to change things. You can't present yourself in the same way if you're trying to appeal to a certain group of people that you did before. So I'm there and I know there's a disconnect between who I am now and who I was four years ago, which is the website. So, you know, I'm trying to do that, but it's been, you know, I have to say, you know, what's cool is that. And the reason why I originally got into copywriting is that I didn't do it because I thought it was a great idea and I'm very strategic. I did it because I right out of the gate. It worked for me. So I kind of like, I've kind of went with that and I've kind of scaled up, you know, as that's been happening, you know, and when I say it's work for me that people have come to me, hey, like you're saying, I really want to work together, cool, you know? So that's been really great where I kind of practice what I preach in that sense. But gosh, man, I going back to the stuff that you brought up. I appreciate it. It's cool. All right. I want to say a couple of quick things since you've so graciously volunteered to help out with this, and he sent me a deck and everything I know somebody else did as well. And I have some of that information, but I think it's too much a jam into one call here is this is that the design of your website, even though it's four years old, looks pretty good. And the reason why I think it looks good is because the images are simply treated. It's not busy. There's this thing called the one to one attention ratio where you want to be able to just look at one thing. So there's no menu that's distracting you. It's just a simple image. OK, now not that you're asking me, but I'm going to just give you a little feedback. OK, yeah, please. I think you chose a nice typeface. I like the color combination. I think that JCC needs a little bit of work because the j-k it's already blending together. And the contrast ratio between that in the background and you squint your eyes. Very difficult to read. So I know the logos and design isn't your strong suit and you and I are talking about that offline anyways. But yeah, I also think there's a lot of pictures of you. Yeah, I know. I love to see you a little something. You know, I like seeing a picture of you. Yeah, but just to break it up. Yeah and the last little thing is we talk about this since I'm a type, not the prime mark. And if you're in architecture, then it's the foot mark, right foot versus inches. You need to use a real apostrophe, especially if it's there. OK, I want you to work with a really great typesetter and have them work on this stuff with you. That's all. Otherwise really nice design. Simple, straightforward. I think you're following all the formulas of how to deliver on a good landing page. All right. Now let's step into your deck. So step one? You talk about it and I'll step through the slides if this doesn't work. I'll try to figure out how to give you control. OK Yeah. Yeah, perfect. The show is yours. Thanks, man. Thanks appreciate it. And Thanks for having me. I really appreciate all this stuff. You know, I took this from the standpoint of what you guys said. You like your exact topic copywriting how to write customer centric copy for your website. You know, and I mention, I'm not so much talking about the email thing. There's a lot I think that's kind of a little bit different. I think somebody else in the group had mentioned that. But I'm taking this topic from the standpoint of like you guys from like you're most likely a design agency. I was trying to see and look at like a lot of design firms out there, what's happening, what's going on. And I kind of wanted to I don't always do this kind of approach for everything that I kind of take on, but I wanted to start with this first step because I think it's really I think it was really important to really, you know, put yourself in the mind if you flip back to the first one, Chris, you know, you know, to really put yourself in the mind of the customer. And you know, some of the earlier books that I had read was talked about how, you know, you almost have to like, be an actor, right? Take on a role of, you know, the person, whoever it is, it's going to your site. You first look at it through your eyes. You're like, oh, I like the way this looks. I like the way that sounds and all this other stuff. Right, that's perfect. Now you almost have to take a step. You almost have to step outside of yourself, right? And say, OK. I have a person. Maybe he's a CMO, whoever, he has $10,000 to spend, he's searching Google. There's 10 other people that he's going to pull up. That's like me. What? what? When he goes to my site or when I go to someone's site? What is it that I'm thinking, you know, a number of things, and if you switch to the next slide, Chris, the most important thing is that most of the time what people are thinking are, are these three things, right? It's like, why you? What makes you different than everyone else that does what you do? And I think the third thing that's really becoming a lot more important these days and you're seeing it you and just so many things is, yeah, that's great. But how can I trust you? Can I trust you? That's great. There's a lot of talk and I see you like, people are expert this and that. But you know, it's funny. You know, when somebody calls themselves a social media expert and then you go to their Twitter thing and there's like 100 you know, 100 followers? Yeah, I don't know that you're a social media expert, and these are the things that people are, are doing and are thinking about. And the thing I see, there's a lot of writers call themselves copywriters and stuff like that. It's not, you know, every word like matters like. And to Chris's point, you know, and I appreciate, you know, a lot of the feedback. When I originally started, I was originally started to do my site. I pulled up and I looked at 10 other copywriters I typed in like copywriter Seattle or copywriter or whatever. And I looked at all these other sites and I said, OK, so they're not to design friendly because people copywriters are thinking it's all about the content and it's all about the word great. You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to make it more design friendly because I think that's important. Copy needs to work with art and art and copy and everything at the same standpoint I looked into like, gosh, nobody has like a video and this is my second video when I first started and have one, the second one I did. I'm like, you know what? I'm going to do a video like for me, like, there's no other copywriter that I came along with at that time that had that. So I was looking for different things and thought that, you know? If somebody were if I was somebody looking for a copywriter like this person really stands out from this person, and that's what somebody that's what you have to always think about is like, OK, so why you? Why should I hire you versus the five other people that are claiming to be a full service agency that could deliver this and not? OK, well, that's great. But what makes you different than them? Like, why should I choose you? And then more importantly, I like testimonials as well. Like in terms of the trust factor, you know, how could I trust you to kind of deliver it where somebody is thinking, if you say something and you could back it up with a testimonial from a reputable person, not a best friend. Not when I Google somebody who said this testimonial, they're like another guy, whatever that adds to your credibility. So when I hit the next screen. And so, so when you take all of that into account, all of the stuff on my site and all the stuff that I really do is it's really important to kind of listen. And now when I first, you know, it's easy to kind of say like after you have years of experience, you work for these kinds of brands and stuff like that you have credibility, right? You have an HP logo on their t-mobile, whatever people like, OK, this guy is credible and stuff like that. But what I originally did when I first started working with clients is I asked them, I said, you know, like one of my first clients that I had and I was, you know, really getting into copywriting and studying, I had said and I drilled her with a ton of different questions like, listen, what is it that you like about me? What is it that that's different? And then I had to also think, like, what am I also good at? And I saw, like, there's a consistency that kind of happens to where that you have to kind of listen and what people say, you know, it's like, man, I really need someone. I'm too close to this. You know, I really needed an outside perspective. OK, I hear that again. You know, we really need someone that, you know, is this or that, you know? And then the whole, I think for me is like, I like looking at things differently. I like pushing the button like, I don't like somebody saying, hey, I need a case study. Can you kind of help me? So I purposely and we talked talk about this on the last call, Chris with, you know, when you Milli Vanilli on one of the websites is that it's strategically written so that I don't want to work with boring ass people. Do you know what I mean? Like, I love pushing the envelope. I know I'm better at that. So if you come to me and you're like, Oh wow, I love your site, the nine times out of 10, like, we work really well together. And what I do is like that fine. The fine tuning of stuff like I implement it in the copy. I don't I think when I was talking about the difference between a writer and a copywriter, we do all this stuff. But what when you listen to what people really hire you for, it should really start to go in your copy. Maybe it's a maybe it's a headline, you know, maybe it's the body copy about talking about that. When somebody contacts us, we answer the phone like, you know, we're excited to, you know, to talk to you versus other people, people. Quick, quick thing is this kind of like, is this kind of making sense. So far is any kind of questions so far and thoughts or if you want to go to the next slide? I think you're a good man. Just keep going. OK, if you guys have a question, just type it in the chat and I'll make sure to ask Jared, OK. Cool So there's this thing like and I see it and I'm seeing it now, I'm seeing a lot more where it's just people saying, whatever, you know, they just type it, you know, and. Like, you're probably, you know, facing Chris, and I'm always thinking about is like, show me, prove it like people are like. You could do it well, prove it, because what happens if you can't necessarily back it up, then you compete on price. And Chris, you talked about it a lot of times I think before is that people choose the least less risky option. The less risky option is the cheaper person, right? And that's why, you know, one of my lines I put on my website because anyone could be cheaper. You need better, right? Because I've had conversations with my clients is like, you know, I would purposely ask them questions. I'm like, you know, do you ever, you know, why do you why do you buy this? Why do you buy that? Well, because you know, I'd rather pay more for better. And that seems to be a consistent thing with the kinds of people and the kind of clients that I'm working with now. You know, so there's a strategic kind of thing that keeps it going on in terms of the copy that you should be writing to track the people that you like to work with. That kind of makes sense. Yeah yeah, so next slide. Yes OK, you want to. OK, so step two is understanding your customer better, better than they do. Now what do I mean by this? You want to flip on the next one? These are the things that I kind of ask and I ask my clients clients these kinds of stuff. I've got on the phone. I've emailed them. I asked them three things. Ask them first. Like, listen. And for me, like, this is kind of fun because it blows my mind what you think people hire you for and what they tell you they hire you for are two completely different things. And when Chris and when you talk about, you know, it's not people don't want a BMW, like, I assure you, people don't just want a Mercedes, I assure you. What's the tagline? Love the tagline and Mercedes the best or nothing? When you when you walk in a store, whatever you know, to shop for a Mercedes, they want the best or nothing. You know, when we think underneath it, like, what do people really want at a Mercedes while I want something that's, you know, reliable? Yeah, you know, you want the look that you get when you step outside of the Mercedes, when you're in front of like a Ritz Carlton that people give you, like, Holy shit, who is this guy, you know? These are things to understand, like underneath it, because I assure you, it's not. Somebody just doesn't want another designer. They have unfulfilled needs. And these are some of the questions I kind of ask. So when I ask these questions for me, it gets a deeper understanding like, oh, OK, so why did you choose me over others? What happens is when you find consistency in that, then you find a differentiating factor, right? And you find consistency in life in that. And five people say, well, we chose you because, you know, you always pick up the phone when we answer or, you know, gosh, you always go above and beyond stuff. These are things to kind of like, you know, think about before hiring me. What were your biggest fears. And frustrations? And you know, that's kind of important to kind of understand from because I always look at things like, for me, I always say, like, I don't complete projects, I solve problems. And when I joined the group, I didn't. I always do like the strategy part, and I didn't really start off with that because I want to start from a point where I think that makes sense to you guys. But I started charging for strategy and doing that because I realized, like all this stuff is super important. But, you know, understanding what people's biggest fears and frustrations and having an understanding that you're the solution to the problem because I guarantee you like people don't just hire like you because, well, you know, I don't know. I kind of think like this or that. We're like, hey, man, I got a problem. Like, I really need this or that, like, can you help me? And understanding that puts them at ease and where they say, you guys understand me, you understand my problem. Let's talk or let's work together. And then, you know, the third thing is I try to ask is like, what is it about me? Like, what really stood out from everyone else? Like, why did you like, I'm curious, why did you choose me over others? And I take this from a curiosity standpoint, and I think for me, I love the I guess I have a curious nature about me. I don't know, but I'm always kind of curious, like, you know, like what? What got you to hire me over everyone else? And again, you start to kind of see consistency, and that's the kind of stuff that you leverage in your copy to attract more of those people. And somebody said a while ago is that, you know, you talk to one person, you talk to everyone. That kind of makes sense. Yeah yeah, I just want to add something in here on the spirit of curiosity. I'm reading this book. I think his name is Stephen Shiffman or Stefan Schiffman, and it's I picked it up at a used bookstore called the 25 most common sales mistake and how to avoid them. So here in mistake number two, he said, here's a three questions that you guys can use just about anything. And the way you can remember is to ask them a question about the past, the present and the future. So what have you used in the past? And what are your current present needs? And what do you anticipate doing in the long term in the future? And they said, if you add a strategic how or why and there's every once in a while you can get a lot of information. So this is Jared's framework in terms of how he gets the dialogue going. So he's going from a cold to warm to hot lead and then he's trying to figure out what their wants are. And I can totally attest to the fact that. Every time we ask this question, we're a little surprised by the answer, and we've been doing this for 22 years is what is it about our work that you liked or what got you to call us? And that's a big clue as to what they're looking for you today, because in your mind, you might be thinking they're calling us for that big Xbox thing that we just did or the Nike commercial we did years ago. But it turned out that they saw something for ancestry.com, and they love that part of it. And so that gives me a lot of information as to where I need to go with the work. So we're going to keep going, right, jared? Yeah all right. Here we go. So I think a lot of people have, you know, I hear the buyer persona kind of thrown around and they're creating an avatar kind of thing. I hear that a lot. And then I see like that. And I think like, you guys are more visual, right? So you might have a few things that you touch on and then create like avatar there. 22 to 34. Like, they love shopping or whatever. So these are the kind of questions that I asked my buyer persona. And like, for instance, like when we talk about who does, who is my audience? So audience businesses and brands that need to take a better, more effective approach to their marketing, mostly CMO sales and marketing managers, office managers, what do they fear? They fear hiring an unqualified person looking like an ass, looking bad or embarrassed in front of their peers looking like they don't know what they're doing, hiring the wrong person, creating bad creative. That's a reflection on them. You know, when I go, I go on and on and on. What did they admire? Great original and strategic, if not award winning creative over delivering on your promise. Professional presentation of work going above and beyond pay more for better quality work. A new approach to marketing the same product or service. You know, and I kind of and certain stuff, what I do is I want to go through it. I bold it because that's kind of like a current theme. Like I always say, you know, I'm just as professional as I am creative because what I found is there's people that are super creative and not professional. Then they're super professional people and not creative. So I already had this conversation. You know, I already have these things in my head that I already know. That's a common, consistent theme, but I can find it in ways to narrow it down to like a headline. What do they aspire to? Now this is huge. You know, it's funny. You look at it like a lot of advertising and stuff like that, and you can, you know, there's ways and there's totally different theories. There's a way to go down the fear and frustration and play to people's certain fears and stuff like that. There's also a way to do an aspirational thing. You know, it's like, it's funny you see those cologne ads and you see all this other stuff. It's like, those are aspirational. What do they aspire to? Like, who doesn't aspire to, you know, being incredibly successful, being on a plane and, you know, being able to write, you know, help clients on a beach. So the kinds of things that I find is when I ask, what do they aspire to? Is like winning new or big business, annihilating the competition, winning prestigious awards, being recognized and respected by their industry, peers and company. And then I go, you know, it's funny on number five, I asked, and this could be kind of tricky, right? What are they despise? And I remember I worked with a big kind of hotel, and I asked them, is like, I don't really want to go down that path. And I said, you know, it's not so much. This is from an informational standpoint, you know, I don't I don't I'm not here to do psychological warfare and you're on your audience and stuff like that. I'm kind of here to get a better understanding, you know, of like, what are they despise? And it's these answers that come back are incredible. So for me, when I ask that questions, what do they despise? They don't want slackers. They don't want people who pretend they know they're talking. They know what they're talking about, but don't. So stuff like that. And then, you know, by our goals, what are their main goals to be the best in their business to earn the respect of their peers to win prestigious awards, create long lasting work? They want to kill the mark. You know, they want to kill it in the marketplace, demolish or stand out from the competition, you know. So these are things that I think. So I do this before I like when you have a brief, you have a kickoff like I'm writing notes and all that kind of stuff. But then I go back. And these are the things that I really try to understand. And once I get kind of all this kind of figured out, what happens is ideas start coming that I start capturing and I start writing different stuff that makes sense and answers. Answers starts answering the problem. So you want to go down next one, Chris. So in the back of my mind, once I'm gathering all that information. Is that at the end of the day? I know that I have to understand is that people still to this day, they buy from people who they know, like and trust and now. And I thought about this like, right when I was first starting, I didn't have much work to kind of show for it and people kind of like, you know, I don't have these logos or these kind of bigger companies that I work with. So what I tried to do is amp up the like factor, right? I knew that if I could get you to like me and therefore you trust me or be quite, you know, apparent and honest that you would, you would take a chance and hire me. Now I look at the no and life thing, I look at that as like, I looked at the video, ok? To be quite honest with you, I looked at stuff. I'm like, I want to. I want to use the video as a way to get people to like me. Because I don't know that it's really like you get a sense of who I am through just my website, do you know what I mean? That's where blogs are important, where people I see blogs as a way to get people to like you, and trust you, build your expert status, you know, and all that kind of stuff. That's why blogging is kind of important or the content marketing thing. But when it comes down to that, it really is those three things. So how do we create that on your website and you look at stuff and say, like, OK, well, gosh, maybe some don't have any of it, you know, and that could be a problem. People know you and I think a lot of websites where you just give information, we've been doing this. We've been a full service agency for so and so and this and that. But, you know, do they like you? Where is the like? Like, how could I get a better sense of who you are? You know, and that's we're getting on the phone and stuff like that happens and the trust factor? Yeah you know where you have testimonials, recommendations and all that stuff. And like, you know, you get referrals and stuff like that because someone else trusts them to say that you're this or that you're great and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I just want to add something real quick in here is that this boils down to your beliefs and values. So many companies talk about what they do. And from assignments, cynics talk. I mean, it's worth reiterating many, many times here that he says something to the effect people don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it, and we trust people that believe what we believe. And you can do that in any kind of delivery vehicle, you could actually even do it right on your landing page is to communicate what you believe. Who are you for? What ideas do you champion? What what is at the core of who you are as a person and as a company that tracks? Yeah, absolutely. It's funny. You should say that I'm reading Simon Sinek. I'm halfway through the why. It starts with why book? And it's funny, because there's a company, I think on the last talk. Whatever the different agencies you were kind of looking at through, one was so s.e., La and they have a thing and they're about page. We believe blah blah blah. We believe blah blah blah. We believe. And actually, that's something that I'm looking for. My next iteration is going to have something like that because if there's a people's y, right? And if you want to attract and we talk about customer centric copy and attracting ideal client, because if somebody believes what you believe right away, you're on the phone like cool, like your best friend, your best friends, you know, because you have a similar belief and at the same standpoint, you dissuade people from not believing those things. Like if you don't have a theory that you don't believe, you just want the cheapest copywriter out there for the money? Fine I'm probably not it, but I say that in a way, in a line that you kind of get that, you know, so it serves, I think, two factors where it tracks those people that you would love to work with because of your beliefs and their beliefs are in alignment, but also to when they're not. You don't attract people that don't believe what you believe. Yeah, I think rags, did you have a question? I saw your hand go up. Yeah no. OK, my bad. All right, let's keep going then. All right. All good, you guys. Move your hands. I'm calling on you next. OK, here we go. OK, so start writing we could flip to the next screen. Now, you know, I'm always like, I always am reading, I'm always kind of finding new, better ways. You know, I don't have core just because I've kind of stuck to my process that's been working and it's kind of, I think it's kind of similar. So for me, if something's working, I'm scared to like, I don't want to kind of shift kind of stuff. But as I'm kind of doing stuff and it's funny, a lot of the books that I've been reading kind of been in alignment with the group. I realize certain things. I want to get a better process down for me. I realize certain things that I'm doing are kind of like in alignment with a lot of the books that I'm reading. It's just that they have this kind of process and visuals down a bit more. So when it came upon this, and I help my last client with this and we went kind of through this, the Marty Neumeier book when he talks about this kind of stuff. And I thought, this is pretty cool. And I thought, like, where do I follow in this kind of spectrum? Where does copywriting kind of fall in this thing? And it's really down the middle when I have those two arrows, it's basically like matching your y with who they are, matching what you do with what they want, matching your values to how they belong. So when I say in the bottom, both sides really have to be in alignment with each other. In other words, the customer identity matches the customer purpose. Your customer aims be in alignment with that kind of stuff. So when you talk about like, so what does that mean? We exist to create safe on the top right there, like, that's your company. We exist to create websites that are blah blah blah blah blah. Your customers is like, well, who? Then you think like, who is your customer? Who's your, you know, who are they? Now it becomes we create stellar, you know, websites to help you gain more traffic, to sell more stuff because that's important to you. Or something like that? Do you know what I mean? So it's a matter of you or this your customer is this and connecting the two together so that it doesn't become about you, it becomes about you understanding what their needs are? Is that kind of makes sense on the second part, they're the only in this thing, you know, and I think there's so much room for this, and I just don't, you know, I'd love to see, you know, this, this loneliness factor that he talks about, it's like, what is it that only you offer? Like if, if after the call, go to like type in, like if you're in Atlanta or you're in, I don't know, Phoenix type in Phoenix design firm. See what comes out. Look at 10 other companies and be like they sound the same. They sound the same. Say, what can you offer? That's completely different. How about what? We'll work until you're happy. We are a money back guarantee. I don't know. We'll do this. You know, we do it in a day. No, we really do it in a day. I don't know. But there's room that you guys can like. Anyone can just totally create that's so unique to you and match it with what they want. So if your customers like, you know, they want some kind of quick to go kind of thing or whatever. Right, we have a day package that will be like perfect, you know, something that only you create that they could only get from you. And it's funny, because I see it's funny. Like, I see smaller firms to like huge firms that just they just don't do that when they ask this really big client who's and they do industrial design for big airplanes and stuff like that. It's like, what makes you different from everyone else that does what we do? And this is a 300 person, place their annual revenues like 10 million or something like, I don't know. Yeah, that's like. So you have all these other people competing for your business. But what makes you so different than everyone else that does what you do? You know, and then values like how we behave like matching like with the left part, like how they belong, like how you behave. You know, I know for me. And this has been, I guess, a thing for me and why I'm kind of I know I need to kind of redo certain things is like I have really I want to pay attention to very detail oriented. I kind of obsess about certain details and everything. And I know that that's important to some of the prospects as well, like when I do a proposal, when we get to the standpoint with where, where I feel like we're the right fit and I'm going to do a proposal. I do the timeline I do, I do what's going to happen when I basically, you know, you're going to get this, you're going to get that, you're going to get this, that and there's no question as to. Everything that you're going to get from working with me because I know that that's important to them. I mean, I know the details matter to them when they're spending like $75,000 or something like that. So, OK, so and this is the thing. Can I do? Can I do a quick screen screen share? Chris, is there a way to? Yeah, Yeah. Let me let me see how I'm going to do this. I'm going to stop this share. May escape this. And I'm going to make you just. Or did I see I think I saw a thing. Well, you're the host now. OK, I believe you can do stuff. Good, awesome. Don't go crazy now, ok? Yeah, they'll go crazy, dude. Don't get drunk with power. Sure OK. OK, cool. Can you guys see that? Yup OK. So, you know, here's a thing that I send out to. I'm kind of I want to layer this in a way that I want to kind of go back and kind of show you how I've applied the stuff. So when somebody contacts me, they kind of get this right and you'll kind of see how I tackle certain things. So this is not on my site, but when somebody contacts me, they get this. So we talk about, are you standing out from the noise? You're just saying to it, your success today depends upon it. And because this is the stuff that I found, I say, look, anyone on the internet can call themselves a professional copywriter these days, tell you the kind of magical superpowers to help increase the sales, retention and engagement in some of the best, most respected brands in the world today. But few, however, knows what it actually takes to do that, to understand this isn't just an art anymore, it's a science one that will help you stand out from the noise of a highly competitive marketplace or just continue adding to it. What's the other option? So then I go into this right because I know, like my my, I know that people want a better, more comprehensive approach because I kind of saw the hole in there. So we talk about, like every kind of word, you know, every kind of word matters when I talk about, like, you can rely on me for all your ongoing needs. Have the perfect blend of creativity and professionalism. Why? because that was important to them, but not so much, just them. I want to make sure that you and everyone else in your company can rely on it. And then I go into the stuff and then I talk about that. But the thing that I want to get down to is this, and I see it, I see it so much. And then, you know, Chris, when you put the Futurecast meat up 1,000 or 1,5000,000 like, dude, what do I get for that? What's what's the benefits to me? God damn, man. So that's automatically what I'm thinking. So I know people are thinking like this kind of stuff because they're thinking, like, what do I get from you? What makes you different? So I address it. I say, basically, you're going to get a highly strategic, results driven copywriter to help you win new business without the same boring creative. Why? because strategy, I kind of do that. I know that people at the end of the day hire a copywriter because they want results. And also, I know that they can't win new business with the same born creative. And this was a line that I had used. And I kind of use social media or I use some lines before, and that was kind of a line that I had used before, which was kind of funny that got like, really cool kind of a lot of people liking it. So what does that mean? So as to what that means is as soon as you get started to get eight years of copywriting, knowledge and expertise, leverage the best, most effective copy, in-depth amount of research. And like all of this stuff, so what it does is it stacks it up. So now if I say you get like, you know, you want to pay me $500, like, hey, I charge $5,000 for a website. OK, cool. The person saying like, OK, well, what do I get? Well, there's a difference between saying this is $5,000 and for $5000, you get this for $5,000. You get this $5,000. You get this, you get this to where the benefits outweigh the costs. So if you can make it so, it's a no brainer to hire you that it just makes there's so many benefits to hiring you versus everyone else. Then it becomes a no brainer to them, and Chris, when you talk about objections and stuff like that, you know, that's kind of the stuff that I think about, like, what? What's how do you guys benefit from, you know, from working with us? And I look at and, you know, when you look at those large, slowly landing pages, the higher the price, the longer it scrolls. Why? because you have to sell. The person has to feel like, OK, this is a large commitment. Like, what do I get? You know, and if you could take away all the reasons that they don't want to hire you for the reasons they do, there's like a big thing. So one more thing, actually, let me just go back to this thing because I want to make I want to make a super important point that I think will know why you're doing that. I want to say that Isaiah says this is gold. Rizwan is saying, I love the headline. Matt has a question. I have a question about the length of the document in writing. So, Matt, maybe you can ask that question and then Rob Mac has a question as well. So, Matt, unmute yourself and ask your question. So the question is, I just wanted to discuss psychology and hear from you, Chris. As far as what's the right balance, if you're writing to a CEO, their time is valuable. Do you leave all that copy in there with obviously the bolded headlines because we know they're not going to read all of it, but hope you hope their eye jumps to the most important information. Do you read it in there? So it feels long and compelling? Or do you with the CEO, you're just sort of going to give them an executive summary, where's the balance? And you know, I just wanted to have a discussion on that sort of thing. That's a great question. I was thinking similar thing. So Jared, can you clarify a little bit about when they're seeing that? Is that in the proposal phase? Yeah this like when somebody is reading my website, they're like, hey, I want to, you know, really like to work with you and all of a stuff, other stuff and say, great, cool, I work with a select number of clients, you know, every year. I would love to talk to you about that. If you have any questions about me, I've attached, I've attached more information about me. You know, in the attachments, please let me know and I use it as a way to and I put, you know, I have a $10,000 minimum price, minimum, whatever and all this other stuff. I know. If somebody replies to that nine times out of 10, like, we're good, like where we're good. But but at that. I also am very strategic. Like, I know I have a certain email setup that when somebody like replies and it's a win, like, I don't change that. Like, I'm very strategic, like the people that contact me that have won business from, I use the same kind of email, so you have to kind of test what works and what doesn't work. And if something is really short that works or whatever, do keep using it, you know, you might have to tweak it here and there. So I'm always like and when I worked for a lot of different ad firms and stuff like that, I'm always a A/B testing stuff. I'm always seeing it like, you know, this has worked for a lot of people and other people. It hasn't but be really mindful and it's a great thing to test like, so if you're going to contact a CEO, send a short one, see how it works and then the next person send a little bit longer one, you know, because it's funny. I mean, there's some stuff like where the longer it works and then sometimes it doesn't. But you know, I'm of the belief that see what works and see what doesn't. You know, even it's funny because even my video I asked people, and this is an important point that I want to make. I asked certain people of like, you know, hey, what do you think I might like my new video and all this other stuff? And then I went to the person that actually hired me before, like, hey, what do you think about that? Oh, I love it. Great their perspective matters more because they hire me, and I want them to know and resonate with it before. So you could ask, you know, certain people of like, hey, would you respond to this? Or, you know, certain things, but more importantly, be really conscious and be really mindful of what works and just continue to kind of do that. Because what may work, you know, for one person may not work for another. And I think is a good thing to kind of test out and see. But once it works, do like, that's your thing. All right, I'm going to jump in here. I need to take the I got to claim the host back here. Oh, OK. I'm the host and I'll get you right back on it in a second. Jared, because I want to share something where Zoom. So here you are to answer that question, Matt. It depends on where you are in the buying selling phase here, OK, I'm going to share my previous deck. Where the heck is it? It is. All right, guys, you guys can see this, sir. This is this deck that I think we're about to close on, ok? And so people are asking like, what are you doing differently than what you would normally do in terms of how you are selling 145,000 logo? In this case, the client already has done pretty extensive brand discovery strategic stuff already. OK, so we don't want to go back in there and say, we're going to do our thing all over again and restart the whole process. And I think what is of concern to them is time and also loss of investment in the previous work. And I think if you were listening carefully during the buy sell cycle with a client, they were communicating that to us very clearly. Do we have to start over? And that was a very sensitive subject for them. And if we weren't paying attention, then we would have just submitted the standard discovery phase and ignored that concern. But you have to really pay attention. No, I think we're all lean towards what our strengths are and our biases, right? So Jared's a copywriter, he's going to be very buttoned up when he writes copy. I'm a graphic designer. I'm going to use as little words as possible because words fail me. You guys can see when I mess up all the time, when I post, like, do you didn't spell that right? I'm like, yeah, I don't smell good. All right, let's just deal with that. Some use fewer words. I'm going to use more design and graphics to carry the message. OK so the second let me see if I can advance the page. There we go. So you guys can see it right there. OK we're not doing anything inherently different, and what people don't understand is the bigger. The project isn't about doing more work, it's about greater assurances that you're not going to screw up. That's just the bottom line. So everybody thinks, like, are you doing 15 styles, the same three, same three initial design, same three rounds of revisions? We're just going to spend more time put more bodies on it, but it's the same deliverable, exactly the same, and you can see it right there. All right. So we I totally agree with Jared. When you come to writing a proposal document, you need to be as clear and precise as possible. You really do. That's how the big companies do it, and the next step to this is contracts, and that's I don't have that document here, but we had to send a contract over which is like 20 pages words. Who definitions a client? Not, you know, non-disclosure parts. Indemnification, dispute resolution, all that kind of stuff. That's all in there. OK so does that answer your question, matt? Yes, thank you. Yeah, you're welcome, man. All right, so I'm going to stop this. All right, and I'm going to share the other deck now. Jared, is there another slide or something you want to share again? Yeah, I was going to share this because I think this would help. OK, I'm putting you back in the host position. Asking, OK, OK, here, here's an easier do, it's OK, you guys could see that. But I tried to what when I kind of came out with this, I tried to find like, what's a bit-sized way to show people like how I am different when we talk about time and stuff like that and I'm a fan of. Charts like comparison chart, because what it is, is it really shows a quick, you know, difference. This is something that you don't need to. I'm not saying to do or having your website, but I think it's important to separate it out, separate you guys out and try to find like, who are the three or four different kinds of people that your prospect can hire. So I found consistently there were about actually there might be about five now. I found that there are three or four other places or types of people that people can hire. And earlier on, somebody had said somebody told me I forgot the guy's name. That makes the alternative to doing business with you scary. And I thought, like, OK, that's cool. So I found four types of copywriters that people can hire and and for this would be a great exercise for you guys to do. So for me and how I broke it down into three separate things, right? Or four, and I made me, of course, you know, have a lot more check marks than you see. There's a reason for that. So when I talk to people, I say, listen, there's four types of people that you can hire. You have first, you have your cheap and scary person. They're the guys off of Craigslist. They're they're super cheap. They're $35 or $50 an hour. Listen, you want to hire that guy? Great but good luck with the kind of work that you're going to get. And if you know they're even a copywriter. Second, that I found was experienced, but average. And what I found was there's a lot of people that graduated college with an English degree. And all that other stuff to where that they're super great at, like writing, but they don't understand the copywriting aspect of it. They don't have the creative ideas that you need to stand out from the noise. The other thing that I tell people is, listen, you can hire a big ad firm, right, that hires tons of copywriters and spend $500,000 to millions of in all that stuff. The only thing is you don't get to choose your copywriter. And you know, so, so. So I find and I tell them, listen, I'm the agency level copywriter without all the agency level headaches. Look, here's the comparison chart. Here's what you get from Christmas. The cheap and scary yet. So, you know, and then I put down this the important stuff on the left here. Work directly with ad firms of Fortune 500 companies. You know, I don't know which you've been scary, hasn't worked from conception to completion and everything from international campaign to stuff like that. So, you know, the reason I want to share that again is not necessarily that you have to do that, but I think when your prospect is thinking and the gentleman that had said about when we're talking about a CEO, he's thinking in the back of his head like, OK, there's your one option. I have another option this. I have another option that why I like when Chris had said a while ago is that they choose the less risky option. That's why it comes down to price. Know there's no for a lot of people. There's no risk and hire the cheapest person except for the brand, you know. So anyway, so I just want to share that. I didn't know how that would kind of fit. Yeah, I think that was really nice. I think it gets really detailed. But you know, people within my coach agree he would always say nothing is too expensive or cheap, right? Without context, you just don't know. $1,000 sounds like a lot of money next to a 10,000. It's a pretty good deal. So we learn and we figure out the world through contrast and we compare. We constantly are comparing. This is a great restaurant, but only got four out of five stars versus one out of five stars. And so doing something like that, maybe distilled into a simpler graphic, would communicate everything you wanted to say. And if you guys like that whole thing about positioning yourself between verticals where there's a big, bloated agency that's slow moving and unresponsive, those are words I would have added in there. And then there's the small, but isn't really that creative. And then the horrible option, which is the fiber option, is you like Russian roulette? That's your option. So there's some visuals there, right? I think visually, somehow I turn off my video camera. I do not know how to turn it back on. I'm not trying to hide from you guys, ok? And so if you guys want more of that, it almost seems like you've been going, I don't think you purchased the selling strategy overcoming objections thing, but it's exactly that. So understanding where you fit between the big players because there's always companies much, much bigger than you and the medium sized company or the really super small company that's much, much cheaper than you. So it's definitely there. OK and you guys can't see me all I could see you saying, oh, I thought I was hiding and picking my nose. And the whole time you guys can see me ok? Excellent all right, let's keep going back to the deck or no? Yeah, and you know, when you say that the benefits that they get from working you versus with the other people, right? And these are the things I talk about so it's great to kind of do that. But these are kind of like talking points on the phone that I kind discuss with certain people. So yeah, you could go to the thing, I guess the other thing that I wanted to. Yeah, you could go, I think, to the next one. So before this, what I also wanted to get across is it's important. I think I'm a big believer. I love design. I can't I can't like design. I know what it's done right. But like, I just I just can't design. So at the end of the day, I think it's important to kind of like, know your strengths, right? Like, what's the call to action like? I know if I could get somebody on the phone or in person to talk about that kind of stuff. I know that I'm great at that. So my call to action is I don't have a lot of stuff on my site because I want to get people excited enough to want to call me, to want to contact me right? Because I know if I can do that, they'll call me now. I also have a thing on my site where when I talk about the differentiating things about, you know, what makes me what everyone else is doing, and I want to kind of go the opposite direction like everyone else, everyone at the time was showing their work. I wanted to pass password, protect my work because I wanted you to be like, OK, cool. Oh, shoot, like, I can't see your work, can you? Can you send me a password to see your work? Yeah, let's get over the phone. Go over the phone. Get on the phone and talk about it. Now, I've had different comments about people saying like, oh, you know, you show you work on stuff and, you know, we talk about it. I just look at what's worked for me, you know, and I think I'm really kind of mindful of that and that like what works for you? You know, and I think that's still a bottom line thing that's like, listen, try this out. If this works like, don't touch it until it doesn't, right? So anyway, so I want to put that across because I think understanding where your strengths lie and making sure that you don't have to show all of your cards, you know, if you're great over the phone, get people to use your website as a way to get people excited to go on to contact you. So anyway, so this thing what's in it for me is why? Why is this important to me? You know, this is a thing that your prospect going to your site is basically thinking, OK, so what's in it for me? Why? it's why is that important to me? Talks to the fact that, you know, this is great. So it's like, you know, when you say we provide design services that are whatever so you can like, if you could add the word so you can, then you start to find a way to talk about it in a way that you do this so you can add more profits to your bottom line. You design great websites so that you feel more comfortable and confident in your brand and walk into the next meeting. don't know. Proud to hand out your business card, but something like that. So it's the understanding of your prospect is thinking, what's in it for me and why is that important to me? It's something that you guys have. I think that's important to get across. Yeah so in the book, I'm going to hold it up here. If you guys can see it. It is the copywriters handbook. A step by step guide to writing copy that sells is the third edition that I have is written by Robert Bly. What? I've not read the whole book, but it's a pretty good book. And it says you must appeal to the person self interest. So here here's how some of these things sound. OK give your kids a fighting chance. That's for Chris. That's twice. Go ahead. No, I was just going to say that's the first book, that blog. That's how I got started. They handed me that book. Yeah so here I am, trying to follow your footsteps here, I suppose. Why swelter through another hot summer? That's GE air conditioner. See, it's constantly appealing to that person for deep clean oil free skin. Eczema has the solution. OK, so I'm going to go into your final tips here. Final tips. OK you know, understanding the three thing everybody wants when they go to your site, you know why you? What makes you different than everyone else that does what you do? And can I trust you? And again, I feel like, you know, the more and more people like web design is, how old is the web? Not very. Not very old. And it's really easy to kind of say, you know, we do in this and that and everything. But you know, I've dealt with a lot even just these last few months I've seen like, I don't there's a lot of people like that say stuff. I just don't trust him. Like, I don't because I've had that I've had, like the last four things of like, you know, people telling me they could do stuff and they just can't. So how can so? And I know that's becoming a lot more popular. So, you know, I think trust is becoming a lot more important there. Knowing your customers hopes, fears and frustrations and just positioning yourself as the solution to that, you know, I think it's important to understand, like when somebody wants to hire you, like most of the time, like I have a problem, like if you take it from that standpoint, like take yourself out of it that I design beautiful thing. And if you understand, like, OK, like, I'm a company, I have a problem. We have 20,000 visitors every month. Like, can you guys help me solve it? And when you kind of understand that kind of, you know, framework and understand and try to position yourself like as the problem to that and wanting to attract more ideal clients, it's really understanding and talking to that one person to attract more of those clearly showing off or something no one else does. You know, I showed the kind of comparison chart, you know, I think, you know, and it's really easy to offer. Try, try offering this, you know, to your next client and something after you research 10 or so places that doesn't do this kind of stuff. Try saying, you know what? We'll work until you are happy. I don't know. There's something that it's easy to kind of create something totally different, something totally unique that no one else does. And what it does is or at least test it out and see something that works, and then that becomes a differentiating factor. The benefits some make sure the benefits someone receives from working with you far outweighs their costs. Know I share that kind of stuff. So what it is when we see just a price like Chris is $1,000 thing in the 1500s or I'm like, what do I get from this deal? Like, what do I? Is that bother you? When I get a cheese Platter, I'm like, I don't want a frickin' cheese Platter is a gold cheese. I mean, do I have my own cheese platter? Like, dude, come on. So but what happens is then when you? It's funny because when people say, well, what's your rate? And I say it and it's like, OK, see, so. You know, it scares them away. But when I share all the benefits that you get and how much different it is than most other people, and when you put a side by side comparison of what I've done with most other copywriters like, and I hope that I don't want to come across like whatever. But you know, there's usually not like it's not equal like, you know, somebody who's done like something for two years versus 10 years, like, you get better, work faster, you know? And that's a great line. So, you know, there's benefits that I think is important to think about in that, you know, I'm a prospect. I need web design or whatever. Like, what are the benefits I get from working with you? That's great. And it's not something I believe less is more. Maybe it's something you put on your website. Maybe it isn't. But maybe these are talking points that are certain things that you know, you could talk about when you're talking to your customer because in the back of their mind, that's what they're thinking. And I think Chris, the final one I think you talked about, you know, the number five was if we go on the previous slide like tackle objections, you know, and prices, I think there comes down to like three things, right? Saving money, saving people time, money, and frustration like it usually comes down to any iteration of that. Can you save me time? Can you save me money? Can you save me frustration, right? And tackling like certain objectives understand. Like, listen, pricing is going to be an objection if somebody's going to have. So how could you say, like, how could you? Sometimes I like working backwards, write on a page like what are consistent objections everyone is having for not hiring me now on a page? Go through them like go through, well, OK. You know, you're too much. Yeah, I'm not too much because I realize the cost. I realize if you pay me $10,000 or if you pay me $10,000 and I bring you in $100000, it doesn't become about cost, right? Um, if you pay me $5,000 and I bring you $20,000 or whatever or in value, it doesn't, I mean, it's a no brainer who wouldn't want to pay somebody $5,000 to get $20,000 in return? So pricing is an objection. You know, time is probably an objection. They're frustrated about certain things. That's probably an objection. It could be as easy as like, I've seen people. What I've done and what people do is those are like those become blog topics, right? Those maybe it becomes an FAQ section like, you know, but understand that there's all of these objections. I think a great way to kind of protect yourself from like the next client call or whatever is to write down every objection and tackle it on a piece of paper. And then how can you condensed those down in a few words? And maybe it does maybe becomes a headline in your website and you start to write the body copy basically off of that because you're seeing like, this is a big objection. So and then I think finally, you want to switch to the next slide there. This was a theme that I think this is one of those lines. You know, you guys read quotes and stuff like, Oh my gosh, that's mind blowing. I don't remember I got this from somewhere. I don't recall who had said it, but people buy an emotion and then justify it with logic. And this was a big thing that I think that really kind of resonated with me with what I try to kind of do, right? My wife, she likes expensive jeans. She stopped at Nordstrom. Like, really? What's the difference between like, you know, a $200 pair of jeans and a $50 pair of jeans? She'll justify it like all freaking day man, you know? And it's funny. I listen to the reasoning when I talk about earlier in the day listening, like I listened to the reasoning, the justification for that? Well, I deserve it. Like, you know, I feel like I worked hard, like, I want something that makes me feel good in it. And I know like this designer does it or this designer. I love her story. know, she's a good person, but it's so funny. The justification so incorporating. I think your job is to hit on an emotion and get people more emotionally involved in that aspect of things. You know, how could you say something like, Oh my gosh, like crap, you know, and I think and there's so many different theories and all this other stuff, there's like the direct mail thing where you just say 50% off, you know, Friday, click here. And then there's other ways like, you know, just hitting on an emotion and being like, Oh my gosh, like I need to like, I need to go and get this. I wanted to just say a little bit about this, since you're asking about this and I see someone else like Mike Beckman is talking about it. Jordan Belfort and many of the videos that are available online right now, you guys can go check it out. Jordan Belfort. He's the wolf of Wall Street guy. He talks about selling to both sides of the brain, the left and the right. He says, basically, if you appeal to the person just by logic alone, there's no passion. There's no sense of urgency. They won't make the decision and they'll leave the showroom. And then if you appeal to them and emotionally, just like, sell really hard and get them really excited about it, they'll buy. But if you don't deal with the logic part, they'll go home and they'll have buyer's remorse and they'll come back and return the product from the showroom. So it's like a good salesperson needs to understand how to sell both. You're talking about that just in copy and versus the buy sell cycle. And I think it's exactly the same principle, and I want to make sure there's enough time for a couple of questions. There are some questions coming from Rob Mac and a couple of other people, and I know you have an exercise chair. So can we just keep moving along because I need a few minutes before the hour, two hours are up, ok? Yeah, yeah, for sure. OK, so I think you were asking about a volunteer. Yeah, I mean, and listen, you know, I was thinking like, we're going to do. Let's I'll just help answer any kind of questions and stuff like that. Oh, OK, perfect. So guess what? Here we go. There you go. All right. So man, come on, huh? That picture just brings you back to times. So that's funny. Yeah OK, so let's bring in Rob. I think Rob had a question about where do you ask jared? You talk about results driven copy, but where and how do you show results? The only thing I see are testimonials on the logo quilt. Is this part of a conversation for you? Um, I think like case like, you know, case studies and stuff like that, I think those are important. I think that like. Understanding that's why it comes back to like understanding your prospects, right and understanding like, listen, I got a like, there's some people like, I got a problem, I need a designer like, can you help me? And there are people like, understand. People are scrolling through stuff or looking on your phone and then asking, and then, like you, Chris, they're like googling stuff and being like, they're trying to find ways. They're going on Yelp or whatever. They're trying to find ways that like, they trust that. So I don't like it becomes. It's about results. I think for sure. But I think your prospect, I think it becomes about like, are you the best solution to their problem? OK, rob, a follow up question. Yeah, I guess the question was, you talk a lot about being results driven. Is that enough in terms of just saying that because that's what they're looking for or do you also just look at your site? It really demonstrated. I don't know if you demonstrated in your when you talk with them or what, but it's not really demonstrated just beyond saying that. Yeah, yeah, you're a differentiator. You keep saying that that's one of your main differentiators. Yeah, Yeah. And that's and that's like when it back up, part of that is understand that I want people like I have a portfolio, right? It's password protected. Yeah, I show it like I could show it in my portfolio. So like. My thing is that and, you know, part of the website, and again, I know like I need to change certain things and I'm going to have case studies in there. So part of knowing your strengths and what you're good at and stuff like that for me, if I could get people excited enough, I'm not just like, I'm not just shoveling crap, just hey, I'm results oriented. I'm just saying this to get you to call me. It's me understanding you guys understanding what works for you. Like, how could you get people to follow your path, you know, and if and if you know, case studies and stuff like that and you know that people want to see results and stuff like that, and that's the main thing. Yeah in case studies show results. Otherwise what their bargaining chip is the price thing, you know what I mean? Yeah, actually, I was wondering if it was a strategy for you, because sometimes I worry about showing too much or showing too little, because sometimes you show too much, it raises too many questions, you show too little if the raise is quite so this sort of thing. I don't know. No, you're absolutely right. And here's a thing that I realized like for me from the top, from the portfolio, because this is something that I was dealing with earlier on. And there's a lot of T-Mobile and Microsoft work. So I used to I used to people always looking for stuff that you don't do, right? It's like, oh, do you do like real estate or whatever? And that was one of my objections that I had to kind of go through. So for me, I wanted to be able to control like that conversation. I didn't want people saying no to me because that work wasn't in my portfolio, right? So so I think it's a plaything. Like I said, I'm really strategic and I know what works for me and what doesn't. So I kind of went back and forth originally, and it's so funny. Like I will tell you, this is mind blowing to me. People hire me unless it's an agency. They don't even look at my portfolio like they don't ask to see my portfolio. Like the people that aren't agency like, I've closed 10,075 1,000 project. They never once asked to see my portfolio. Like, it's funny. It's almost like a test kind of thing. But yeah, you're right. And I kind of think it's like a plaything, you know? And I purposely to go off of that as well. Like, I show stuff on my portfolio that is first round stuff is whatever, because I know it's me and I show stuff on my portfolio, that stuff that I want to do. Yeah, not so much so. And what that does also to is it attracts more of that kind of work. But yeah, no, I understand it. So I don't know, does that kind of help does that? I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing not to show too much. And I think what you're saying when I first looked at a lot of time ago, like the Video Killed it for me because instantly, like I felt like I could trust you. And that's what you look for, someone that does what you do. And that's the thing, too. And like I said, I look at like video and I look at like, how can I get a complete stranger to kind of get to like lightning? Because that's what you have to think like these are like, know, like and trust like, OK. So a lot of things when you go to a website, OK, I know what you do, I know you guys do this or whatever. Now the second thing is to like people are thinking like, seriously, like, I'm probably Chris too like Chris. People like, like all your videos and stuff like that, they're like, dude, I like this guy is not overly sexy or whatever. Like, I want to subscribe to this stuff. And probably you're just like freaking got clients. Because, dude, I like you, but I trust you, you know, so. However, like, you could kind of do that. And maybe it's video and it's blogging too, you know what I mean? It's the sense of, yeah, like, I kind of know this person. I kind of like this person, you know? And I think it's a matter of this. I think it's not that complicated. Yeah, there's a lot of mystery around you until you make it less mysterious. So appearing on video your real person, I get it. I see you in a real office or you're doing real things. They can relate to that. They trust people who are like them. And that's the bottom line. We have two more questions. I think this is a really good one coming in from Matt. Matt's like, do you get paired with CEOs or cross to measure the success of your copy? Good question, Matt. I see. And it's funny. OK, so there is a thing a few years ago, and I'm glad somebody brought the same thing. There were things a few years ago that SEO was like this huge thing, right? How do you rank at the top of Google and all this other stuff? I've been fortunate because I've been blogging since 2006 2008. So when people do copywriter Seattle, I kind of come up at that standpoint. But listen, this is super important to get guys. How many coffee shops Do you pass by to go to the one that you like and trust? Like, how many do you pass by? A time like you go shopping at some Barneys or Nordstrom Old the gap, whatever, how many clothing stores do you pass by and go to the same shop ceo? It's the same thing with copy on your site because they like you, and trust you. Just because you're closer in proximity to something doesn't mean that you're going. People are going to use your service or whatever. So there's like this echo thing that if said, well, hey, we could get you to the top of Google. It don't matter. I'll scroll through five pages to find somebody that I like. So I. So long story short, I don't necessarily pair with like, it's funny because when the SEO thing was going on, I used to go to a lot of SEO events and stuff like that, and I say, I'm a copywriter. They really didn't know what that was. And it's funny. So I haven't done much stuff with SEO. I've done a few things because there are certain keywords and all that other stuff. But at the end of the day, like if you're talking to me and don't sound like a robot, if you're talking to me, I'm going to resonate with you more than somebody that doesn't, you know? So, but but I also understand that it's important, you know, the SEO thing, there's an important need and stuff like that. I think the bigger question is, how do you measure the success of your copy if you're giving copy? What is it results driven copy? How do you quantify that? I think that's the question. Um, in the. So when I used to work with a lot of different agencies, they have the strategy department and all this other stuff, and everything is very like everything is measured in a click and this or that. How many people go to the store in the direct mail world? For a year, I worked in the direct mail space where I was really weak. And it was kind of cool. It was a totally different take on, just like copywriting and everything. There are certain codes that people use, like their special phone numbers that people use. So if you call like if you get a direct mail piece for AT&T and get this special offer, that offer code is measured, right? So people look at that kind of stuff, people look at engagement rate, you know, is this a, you know, a video is really easy, right? If a video you do a video, you get five years versus 5,000. That's that's a measurable kind of thing. Like everything now, even like your tweets and Twitter and banner ads, they're all kind of measured. So what that does is it comes back to the strategy department or whoever. And it works now. Like for me, working with different clients and stuff like that, there's a lot of like, you know, I kind of I've been kind of approached by people just coming directly to me, not through an agency, and they really need like stuff and everything. So, you know, it's hard for me to kind of measure everything. But when I work with a team and other stuff, usually most stuff is whatever. But people come to me and say, Oh my gosh, you know, we did this whatever work well and blah blah blah blah blah, you know? So there's a number of different ways to of measure that. Just basically the bottom line is when somebody hires a copywriter and, you know, even design thing, I think what's happening is people want more like results, you know, and they're like, what are results is basically like people calling us for business. You know, our my sales increasing because at the end of the day, I look at copywriting as sales. Sometimes it's a longer funnel. It's a longer conversation like, you know, videos, content marketing and all that other stuff. And it's a process, you know, we talk about the brand story and all that other stuff where it's not initially like, oh, I read your story cool, but it's a part of the process. Whereas people that aren't results oriented, I find like, oh, I'm going to do a really cool story for you or I really think, like, this is going to work. You know, we talk about the strategy standpoint. NYICD kind of started from a to B is that it's not about writing something and hopefully this gets across. It's not about writing something that sounds cool. Where I start with strategy, I want to know what are people responding to? What are not what aren't people responding to what? What is work for you in the past? What hasn't know, what do people love about you versus what don't they like? So when I say results oriented and results focused, I look at all of this stuff and and I develop copy based off of all the research, all the marketing, getting on the phone with your clients and being like, well, what do you really resonate with? You know, what did you really choose us versus others? So when you go through that process, I think it's really like, that's why I say results oriented and results focus because I want to make sure I have all the data and everything to have a clear understanding of what you guys need written in the copy. So, all right, excellent. So Matt had to bail, but he included a link to buzz sumo, where they analyzed hundreds million headlines and find out what is the highest engagement. So I think there's one more question here. And then there's something I want to talk about in terms of landing pages. So the other question here is coming from rags. He's like, Jared, how important is storytelling in the customer centric copy? Should we focus on more compelling content, which can move the user? OK OK. I'm sorry. Shall we say one more time? Yeah how important is storytelling in the customer centric copy? OK, so he's like as a potential client, one looks for a strong story through content and visuals, should we focus more on compelling content, which can move the user? Again, I'm going to go back to, I think, really understanding your customer and what they want, like if somebody is, you know, the CEO and I need, you know, I have a problem, I want to do this. And you tell them like some big long story of, you know, when we start and whatever they want, they're going to quickly glance at your thing and be like, that's cool. Awesome let's get started. You know, they're not going to take a deep dive. So I really feel like it depends on who your audience is, what they respond to and what they don't. And I always go back to that because, you know, there are certain there's going to be certain things that work for you and certain things that don't work for other people, you know, and I think it's being really mindful of that and really understanding and asking like, ask your one incredible client, you know, be like, listen, like, you know, why did you go with us? And they say something like, listen, I really liked your story. Well, what is it? OK, so what is it about you that you liked about our story? Well, you know, I like the fact that you started from scratch and I have a brother that. OK, so then that becomes your that becomes a part of your story. Do you know what I mean? And you can tell that, and you could use that as a framework for other stuff, you know? And how do you boil down that story in? I don't know. And like a sentence or a paragraph, and there's ways to kind of do that on social media, you know, in your bio. But I think again, I think it really comes down to, at least for me, when I kind of look at stuff because I try to look at and I try to be mindful of what's working and what's not working, is really understanding your customer, really understanding what they resonate with. They resonate with that story and that kind of stuff or not, you know, and really understanding and be mindful of that. So OK, great. I think there's a bunch of resources that people are sharing, I have some as well. And instead of all of us going and downloading them and giving everybody our email addresses, what I suggest is if you're already download it. I know some of these things contain cookies that can follow us around anyway, so it won't really matter. Just upload it to this event inside our Facebook group. This is one of the awesome parts of this community is we all have different resources and we can share them with each other and help our own community to grow. OK that's what I'm going to suggest. I'm going to go back to sharing the deck because, OK, first is there aren't any of the questions. I'm sure you guys can continue to chat with Jared offline. Jared, I want to just thank you for doing this. You saved me a lot of work. I was stressing out over it and then I got your deck. I'm like, I don't have the stress out anymore. I know you're going to take care of this. So thank you so much, guys. And if anybody else wants to step up for a future topic, just let me know and we'll get you in on here. Now, here's what I'm going to do. And if this is cool after this call, what I'll do is I'll upload this video. But if parts of this you want me to share publicly on our YouTube channel, I will. If you want a lot more traffic to your site, Jarrett, we can do that. Ok? we'll see. All right, so all good. All right, let me go back to sharing the keynote here desktop to. Share that. OK, so now look at play here, landing pages. OK, we're not going to get into email stuff. There's a lot of email templates floating out there that you guys can use. Of course, we can all write better emails. I don't really sell through emails, so that's not my area of focus. If it's yours, there's tons of resources out there. OK, and I'm going to read if there's a little bit more time, some headlines from the book. I think he has 38 model headlines for your swipe file, but I'll do that at the very, very end. So I'm talking about landing pages here. I just scraped a little bit of content. I had this PDF floating around from this group. It's called lead pages, and this is what it looks like. You guys know this one. The ultimate guide to landing pages. OK, so the thing is, what is it? What is a landing page definition and what is it supposed to do? So here it is, just in four bullet points. It's supposed to get people to subscribe to an email list or newsletter to download a piece of content like an e-book or free report. Register for a live and/or digital event like webinars or conferences. Purchase an actual product or service being offered now. In Jared's case, and most of our cases, we just want people to send an email to us, fill out a contact form or call us. So that's all it needs to do. OK, so some things that you need to think about is have to write an engaging headline. Your headline tells your readers exactly where they are, why they're here. It gives them a reason to keep reading, and the book the copywriters handbook is going to go that in Super detail. OK another thing that you need to have is a compelling offer. It's essential to be as clear and specific as possible about what exactly that offer is. The more compelling you offer, the more likely your visitors are to see the reasons they should complete your desired action and know exactly why it will be a benefit them. And I'll fix that. And then, of course, the part of imagery, Jared, we talked about this, he says. A lot of copywriters just put copy, and that's all they care about are just the words on the screen. So when they zig zag, when they milli vanilli? All right. And he's doing, he's paying a lot more attention to design than most copywriters would, and I've seen copywriters cite just about the words. So people are more willing to do business with anyone or anything that peers professional and good aesthetics are an important part of that. This is where you guys, as designers, as creative people can bring all your skills and talents to bear. And then lastly, good call to action. You call the action in order to nail your conversions and generate more leads and sales, each of your landing pages needs to have an enticing call to action and they said be very specific. So instead of saying by now is a button. Change that to learn French today. It's very specific, so if you go through this document, which I will upload right after this call, so you don't actually need to search for or to give anybody your email address if you don't feel comfortable doing that. I would just upload it. And I have another document as well, so I have to upload myself. The best landing pages are easy to follow. Our mobile friendly use, clear language feature, clean design contain a valuable offer. So I think if you're looking at best practices, you guys go look at your own site right now. I don't even need to critique it. Just go down this checklist. Am I doing all these things? And if I remember correctly from Jared site, he is doing most of these things, I think the only thing he doesn't have is contain a valuable offer. Maybe he does, I don't know. Maybe you can say, like view my portfolio by contacting me and you can see 10 years of case studies of incredible work that gets results or whatever it is. All right. And I think this is the other resource I'm going to share with you guys. Attention driven design. This is another one from unbalance, and I will upload that PDF. I didn't feel like copying and pasting the whole thing in there. OK, so I'm going to stop the share. Escape out of here. All right. Go back to this. I still don't know how to turn on my camera to appear, but whatever you guys can still see me, I'm going to reach you guys. A few of the 30 some odd headline template 38 models here just to entice you about this book. OK, I see somebody who's already bought it. I will give you guys the link later if you guys want to use my Amazon affiliate link. B, you're welcome to do that or do whatever you want. OK, so here it is. No one asked a question in the headline. So here's an example. What do Japanese managers have that American managers sometimes lack? A tie into a current event, stay one step ahead of the stock market, just like Martha Stewart, but without her legal liability. OK create a new terminology, new polarized oil magnetically adheres to where parts in machine tools, making them last up to six times longer. Making them last up to six times longer. So these are templates that you guys can use, make a comparison how to solve your emission problems at half the energy costs of conventional battery scrubbers, whatever that means. OK, you can use words that help the reader visualize why some foods explode in your stomach. Wow that's a rough one. All right. We have a few minutes left here, you guys. Any any thoughts or questions, comments, concerns, criticisms, kudos. What do you guys want? Oh, one thing I was going to say, Chris. Go ahead. Just, I think the topic, you know, we talk about writing, customer centric shopping for your website and people talk about email funnel. Just like tip, right? I have a kind of a swipe file right of. And I have a little folder on the side of the thing for like email, like awesome emails, whatever. I think a great tip that I really love is that you find an email that you get that you really love. Put it in there, and what you could do is you could copy the framework, right? They use a short thing, whatever. If you love a certain brand or whatever, sign up on their newsletter. See how they do the first email to you. The second email, whatever and that strategy you can model, you know. So there's a quick tip that helps out. And then the only other final thing is like in terms of headlines and stuff like that and customer centric stuff don't want to tip. I want to leave you with is go to those websites, see how they write the headline. I a lot of times like I look at USA today, like, what's the new everything was like breaking news, right? Breaking is ridiculous. These days. It's breaking whatever, but it gets people's attention right? But see how other people are marketing to your target audience by going to those specific websites and they have an email newsletter. Sign up on the email newsletter and see how they're doing it and the sequence and whatever, and you can model that kind of thing. So this final tip? All right, Jared. People are asking, will this deck be available? Do you have any issues with sharing or should I not share it? No, no. I mean. And I thought you would, so I didn't purposely like put anything crazy in it. Get me in trouble. Yeah so, yeah, I don't think there's anything I didn't mention any kind of names or make fun of people that I don't like. So I think we're good. OK, cool. All right. You guys, any other questions or thoughts before we wrap up? Anything it's open mic now, you guys can all meet yourself, first of all, I also want to say Thanks to everybody, I think you guys are learning the protocol here. Everybody comes in a room muted almost everybody. And when you didn't, somebody told you, hey, unmute your mic. And I think we were figuring out this whole. Audio issue. All right. And as I say that I hear somebody typing, maybe that's Jared. OK anybody have any questions, you guys? Now, we've done a little bit more on this topic of messaging, and that's in the show archives somewhere if you guys want to dig that up, but I think this is very different content than that. So I am grateful for the additional material so that we can go deeper on this topic. I know you won't say anything. Yeah OK, there you are. Go ahead and say it was on how much is little copy and how much is too much copy on our website. You know, and I think that's a great question. When I first, when I write like in terms of my process, I just write to get everything out of my head, right? And then there's a way to just keep cutting back, keep cutting back, keep cutting back. And I think if you have to understand your audience in that, like most of the time, like people are busy, like are your prospects or your customers? Are they like really busy? Like they don't want to read all the stuff, so you could write a lot of different stuff, but when it comes down to it, cut the fat out. Like, do you really need to say like what you're trying to say? And maybe, like, can you say it instead of five sentences? Can you see it in two, you know? So I think it I think just enough to get your point across, but no more than that, ok? They repeat the same message in many, many pages or split the message in many pages. For example, put everything with the same message in the home page and put it in all the other pages or so. Understand like it's a conversation, right? So what I tend to do and I've kind of gotten into this kind of thing, right? You're trying to sell this person on this. So you're going to write this like we save like by hiring us, we save you like $10,000 or whatever. And then you go, like, is he full of crap or whatever? And then so there's a conversation, I think, of back and forth that kind of like. It's a good way to kind of get the flow of things, because when I write, I kind of like I'm writing and I'm saying like, OK, so this is, you know, we're talking about price and whatever, and I'm thinking, like, OK, what's the next objection he has to what I just said, and then I'm continuing the conversation. Do you know what I mean? So understand that it's a conversation when you feel like like, I have a really good gut check and a really good understanding like. And when you're saying to yourself, like, I'm like, this is just like, no one's going to read this far, you know, it's too much. So just pay attention to that and kind of be mindful when you're at that point. You know, what I like to do is I think this is a David Ogilvy thing is when you write something is that you don't have to hit Publish that day. I a lot of times wait till the next day because what do you think that day is like? Oh, great. The next day you come back with new fresh eyes. It doesn't, you know, so right? Take some time. Get stuff out. Condense stuff as much as you can. And I think, Chris, you talked about this in the last thing. I don't want to mention that in going the last one or two calls ago. I think there's the Max's like 3 to it's either 5 to seven lines or three to five lines is the max amount of lines that you should have in terms of otherwise, people get overwhelmed. It looks like too much. So if you break it up and you'll see my website, I don't think the paragraph has any more than 5 to seven lines. So that's another way to kind of break it up. Like if you feel like I need to write a bit more, you don't need a 10 line paragraph because that looks overwhelming. So break it up into three lines or five lines, but no more than seven lines in succession does that kind of make sense? Yeah, it makes sense. Actually, I was talking about the column width of how many words you want to have on oh, a thing. So it's like 5 to seven words and now you're saying three to five lines. So that's about right to me. Yeah, Yeah. You don't want too much copy. I was going to share one thing with you guys. I was fortunate enough to go and speak. And one of the guys that was one of the speakers is an executive creative director at a big ad agency. And he wrote that a really like award winning Super Bowl spot where there's a little kid. He's got a Darth Vader helmet and he's walking around and he's trying to use the force on everybody. And it's the Volkswagen spot and finally comes up to the car and he stares at the car and he's like, no. And then eventually the car like lights blink or something, and he's like, it shocks him and the dads. In the other room, he uses a remote. And that guy was I was talking to him and he said, you know, for me, I've just struggled through the writing process as award-winning as he is. He says that basically, I just try and write a bunch of headlines. And I picked the very best headline to be the winner ultimately. And all the ones that didn't work, I fold into the body copy. It's like rephrasing things so people can understand. So the other thing you guys should think about and we get into some discussions about this at the office is like, I'm not a writer, but I write with a certain kind of rhythm. And it may not be proper english, but it sounds right, and really great writers will tell you that there is the correct way of writing. And then there's ways that work. And they're very different because it sounds right and there's a flow to it, right? And so don't get stuck with what is I call the National. What is that Associated Press way of writing? Yeah, because that's not like Jared said, there's copyrighting and then there's just writing, writing. And people don't know how to write copy. Yeah and you know, I start off back in the day I was a singer songwriter, whatever, and I'm very attuned to like I used to be in the cafe for hours and write like poems and all this other stuff. And I am so super sensitive, like when it comes to editors and then legal and people start on the bigger kind of brands and they start cutting this out and that out, it messes with the rhythm, and I'm so attuned to that kind of stuff. So understand there's a certain rhythm. And like I said, when it feels long to you, it's long and there's ways that you could say and cut it down. Yeah, because I've written, it's just a no brainer that I just write a page of whatever and I get like one or two headlines or whatever. And then you start to get different ideas off of that. So, Yeah. And I used to work in an ad agency and they would have all their best ads up on the wall. And I can't remember what this was for. Maybe it was like for a ski manufacturer like K2 skis or something like that, and there's a giant Black and white photo of a mountain. It looked really impressive this mountain right with snow on it, and the headline was, is, and always will be. And that was it, so that's not even like a real sentence, but it communicates so much, right? Ok? to Jared saying he and I both subscribe to the same school of thought apply to 24 hour rule because distance gives you objectivity. When you're doing it, you fall in love with your own work. So wait, 24 hours, look at your design, look at your website, look at your copy and then look at it again and you'll see it with fresh eyes. You'll see it the way your customers see it, and you're not as good as you think you are most of the time. That's just not true. It's a painful process, man. And I also what I do sometimes too well, a lot of times too, I print it out. That's another way for me to. It looks different when I print it out on paper. I was always the one at like different agencies like print, print it out and people were like, like, whatever, dude, you're wasting paper, whatever. Yeah, like totally. But I have to see it printed out like so it looks different printed out than it does on screen. Like I know for me, it would sound great and look great on a printed piece of paper, as it does on screen. That helps me as well. So probably the same with the design as well. Yeah all right, guys. It's 958. This is a long. Or actually it was a long two hours, but Jared made it go really fast. You guys, I'm going to wrap it up and we're going to officially end to here. So guys, Thanks very much. I'll stop the recording. Hold on. And then for those.

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